Managing Emotions in Divorce Podcast Transcript

Joe Dillon: Hello everybody. I’m Joe Dillon of Equitable Mediation Services and with me today is Cheryl Dillon from Equitable Mediation Services. That’s right, Cheryl. In case you haven’t figured out since we share the same last name, she’s my wife and also my partner here in the two-person team of Equitable Mediation. Today we’re going to be talking about your emotions, how they can derail the divorce process.

To kick things off, I usually like to think of myself as the most important person in the divorce process, thinking I help with the negotiations, with the finances, with the child support, the alimony, the property division, the parenting plan, draft up all this paperwork. But truly, at the end of the day, I couldn’t do my job without Cheryl’s help. Because really, it’s emotions that drive the divorce process. So today we’re going to spend a little bit of time talking about that and how emotions can either help or hurt the divorce process.

Cheryl, the first question I have for you since you’ve coached a lot of our clients: what are the common emotional triggers that crop up for people when you’re working with them during mediation?

Cheryl Dillon: I think one of the common ones is when I’m coaching with a spouse who will be paying some kind of alimony. There are all different kinds of stories or things that are going on for people, but a recent one is that this person worked throughout the whole marriage, aspired to grow her career, move up the ladder, be promoted, make more money to support the family. There was the expectation that her spouse would be doing the same thing. They both have the same level of education. They both had the same level of opportunities to advance their careers. One person did and one person didn’t. It wasn’t that the other person who didn’t was home caring for children because this primary bread winner also was the primary caregiver to the children.

Joe Dillon: Oh no. I can see why that’s a problem.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. They really felt, you know, they did their part. They took on the lion’s share of the home and employment responsibilities and now that they’re divorcing they would be paying their spouse alimony and it really is a really emotionally triggering issue for people for a lot of different reasons. One is fairness. That’s an undercurrent. That’s not fair. Another is really just a lot of resentment and disappointment. So I would say, you know, of course there are many different things that come up for people. This is just one example, but this is a common one.

Joe Dillon: All right. I wanted to point something out. If I heard you correctly, you said her. I believe it’s a common misconception that only women receive alimony. In your example, if I heard you correctly, and of course this is confidential when you coach with clients, so we don’t want to know who it is, of course, but if I heard you correctly, it sounds like the wife in this marriage was the primary bread winner.

Cheryl Dillon: That’s correct. Yeah. And by the way, that’s really common. In the 15 years that I’ve been coaching, this is a very common topic. So it’s not limited just to the husband as the primary bread winner. More and more I’m hearing these types of stories from women who are the primary breadwinners.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. And that’s a good point, right? Because fairness is in the eye of the beholder. So it doesn’t matter what your gender is. If you went out and busted your butt and built your career and then wow just what you told me like then on top of that you also took care of the house. It’s different if you were to divide and conquer. Maybe someone would feel like well I’m out there working outside the home but my spouse is working inside the home. It sounded like this spouse was working both outside and inside the home and I could see how that would be upsetting for them.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. It’s not that the husband didn’t do anything to contribute. They also worked and spent some time with the children. But what’s coming up a lot is that these women are saying I did the lion’s share. I took care of everything and now I’m going to have to pay. So now I’ve been paying and now I’m going to have to pay.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. This is an interesting transition into the mediation space because mediation is all about whatever the parties deem to be fair and equitable. People have often commented in our sessions. I know you’re not actively involved in the mediation. Like I’m not actively involved in the coaching, but they always say, “Joe, we really appreciated the name of your company, Equitable Mediation. That’s all we ever wanted, something fair and equitable. Maybe not 50/50. Maybe I do have to pay alimony. Maybe I don’t, but I just want to have a conversation about it. I want to feel heard. I want to share with you why I may think I should or shouldn’t pay this and explain a little bit about where we got to and how we got there.”

So mediation does allow you to have those conversations and if both parties agree that maybe, hey, you know what, my spouse is correct. I did have the same opportunities. I can waive my right to alimony. And of course, I’m going to take them through our process to make sure they fully understand what that means. But that’s a conversation they can have, right? So that goes to fairness. What are some of the other things that you hear from people emotionally? You know, definitely the alimony. Absolutely. Primary bread winner. What are some other things you can think about?

Cheryl Dillon: Well, a lot of it is also alimony, but there are different situations. Well, unfortunately, you know, infidelity is a topic that comes up. It leads people to divorce or it’s a symptom that gets people to divorce. So it’s the same kind of thing. Somebody will say, “My spouse cheated on me and now I have to pay them alimony, right?” So that’s got to be a stick in the eye.

Joe Dillon: Yeah.

Cheryl Dillon: So I think some other things are with assets and maybe one spouse came into the marriage with pretty significant assets or maybe they had more in their 401k or they had purchased a house. Basically maybe they paid off all their own student loan debts and now they get married and now their spouse has some student loan debts or didn’t have good credit or didn’t have the same kind of assets that they did coming in. Obviously, you know, they’re in love and they’re a team and there’s no keeping tally of will you owe me this, but when it comes to now it’s a divorce and then that other spouse wants half of everything or doesn’t want to factor in that the other spouse maybe had more things or brought more in. It’s really, it’s not about everything having to be 50/50, but I think a lot of times if it’s the spouse who did come in with a lot of advantages there that it’s again unfair that their spouse wants half.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. Whatever they ultimately negotiate in mediation, of course, it doesn’t necessarily have to be where you’re cutting everything in the middle, but I think what’s really getting them is when their spouse is saying to them that there’s an expectation that they’re going to get half or if their spouse is more than half.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. That’s a really tough one.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. “Entitled to” was like you might as well just light the fuse on the stick of dynamite when someone says I’m entitled to this, right? It’s like, no, you’re entitled to have a conversation. There’s no magic rule book that says, “Hey, turn to page 704, and that’s exactly what you’re entitled to.” So how do you talk those people off the ledge as a coach? How do you say to them, “Look, if you I know you might be upset about this, but what’s your alternative?” Or how do you help them manage those emotions so that when they get in my space, they’re actually able to be cooperative and have a productive negotiation?

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. Well, I don’t know if it gets productive. Hopefully, it is on your end because I have no idea. You’re working your magic, whatever you’re doing. So thank you. I mean, honestly, it’s different for everybody. What I try to do is sometimes I’ll first of all point out the value that’s being taken out of their integrity. What’s the root of what’s happening for them? It’s not about the tangible things. It’s like what’s really going on for you that’s making you be triggered or that’s causing you to feel this way. So I try to help them uncover that first.

First of all, by doing that, it gives the other person like validation that someone else helped them acknowledge that that really sucks or that, you know, you’re right. That’s not fair, right? Is it just me that feels this way? So to really kind of bring up like what is the value that is being dishonored that’s taking them out of their integrity? Where’s the trigger? And then from there, again not everybody can do it and it’s different for everybody that I coach with but after validating that because it is, you know, and sometimes it’s more than one value that’s being triggered and it’s basically acknowledging all of them but also trying to identify the biggest one, the most important one that comes to the top.

And then helping them kind of reframe like what’s another way of looking at that. And these are hard because first of all the way they’re feeling is very disempowering. You know, they feel like something is happening to them that’s out of their control. And so if we can kind of talk about what the trigger is, how it’s making them feel or react, where they’re feeling it in their body, because again, when you’re feeling triggered, there are like physical things that are happening. Maybe you’re sweating or your heart is racing or you know the hair standing up on the back of your neck, right? And so it’s really trying to like, yeah. It’s like connecting what’s happening for you and usually such a default it just happens automatically and then the next thing you know you’re all spun up and you’re flooded out like you can’t focus and you can’t have a rational you just you’re out of control.

And so to help them kind of cope with those things, those are some of the things that I do is identify what’s the trigger, what’s causing it, what’s really going on for them. How are they, what are the hints that that’s starting to happen for them, and then teaching them how to take a breath and catch it before it spins out. And because if you can have an awareness of it, then you can have some strategies to deal with it in a better way.

So, and then of course, you know, I don’t want to and it kind of goes on from there. We work on what are some things we can do after we take that pause. And sometimes taking the pause, you know, you have to practice that over and over and over again because it’s not natural, but it’s just catching it. And then even if you’re even if on a piece of paper you’re writing down the things to do afterwards, like you’re just trying to make it more of a regular natural response.

Then on the other side, when we start to talk about like how do they actually deal with the reality of what’s happening, then we do some reframing. So if we can come up with what are five different ways of looking at that same situation of what could be going on and then which one is most powerful for you which one keeps you in your integrity. For example, you know, the person who was the primary bread winner who did all the work with the kids who did all the work advancing her career, now she’s got to pay alimony. We talk about things like how bad about themselves their spouse might be feeling that they might be beating themselves up.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Put yourself in their shoes kind of thing.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. So it’s not just about like, oh, poor husband, you know, but in other words, we’re coming up with all kinds of other possible scenarios for what could be happening because then they can choose what they’re going to believe and grab on to that’s most empowering to them. And when they have the benefit of reframing it that way, a lot of times, first of all, it alleviates a lot of the resentment and the feelings that are kind of really making them not feel so good. And it also enables them to interact with their spouse in a more empowering way or compassionate way.

And again, this isn’t, it isn’t about necessarily forgiving. It isn’t necessarily about, it’s not about any of that. It’s just about the person who’s feeling triggered and helping them not be triggered and to keep themselves. Does that make sense?

Joe Dillon: Yeah. It sounds like sometimes it’s sort of the difference between why does this happen to me, right? And in this example, like when I’m listening to you, the person in your example who’s the one who’s really triggered, they must be thinking to themselves, man, you know, what’s wrong with me? Or I can’t believe that. Yeah, it’s all about me, me, me, me. And then, as you what I thought was really wise, what you said is you shift your focus now. You shift your focus to the other person. And it’s not that you’re blaming them. It’s not that you’re redirecting your anger. It’s just, yeah, let me see if I can figure this out.

A good example which I wanted to bring up is in negotiation. So naturally that’s what I do professionally and what we are talking about here has a lot in common with negotiation. So there is a phrase that we use called conversational jujitsu. And I know you’ve heard me talk about this occasionally where you’re in a conversation right you’re in a negotiation and then suddenly one person is actually moving it forward and getting what it is they want. You think to yourself wow how does that person do it? And that’s what it is.

And the one key thing that you’re talking about which I think would be good for our viewers here is you’re trying to find the position behind the position. So right there’s that surface thing that’s coming at us that trigger that like you were saying that I’m angry or my hair is standing up. But then when you go to that next level and you get into that position behind the position well let’s dig deeper and let’s see what it is that’s really making me feel this way. Like in our world, why is this person asking for alimony? They’re afraid they’re going to be homeless and not have a house for their kids, right? Not because in my world, that would be the example. Not that they’re, oh, well, I’m entitled to alimony. It’s that I don’t want to live over a pizza place near a railroad track, right? I want to have a home that I’m proud my children can come to, so I’m maybe even ashamed to admit it, but I need some help and that’s why I’m asking for alimony. So that it sounds kind of like a similar situation.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. And sometimes, you know, I’m not a therapist and I’m not qualified to talk about some of that stuff that therapists are really best people to talk to about certain past things in childhood. But sometimes what’s triggering the spouse is a reminder of something that happened to them when they were growing up or something they saw with their parents. And so maybe it’s an interaction they had with their parent. There’s some family dynamic. There’s something that’s happening for them where they’re being triggered and it’s sometimes blowing way out of proportion because it doesn’t really have to do with what’s happening right now. It has to do with something that kind of happened in the past or was unresolved. We all do that by the way just so if anybody’s listening.

Joe Dillon: Yeah.

Cheryl Dillon: Or you know where or sometimes they’re hearing their spouse’s words and they’re putting a different context on it. Yeah. The words could be spoken but they’re putting the meaning on the words and they’re putting the meaning in a way again that’s triggering them and taking them out of their integrity. Whereas if they had the benefit of kind of delaying that kind of a reaction, taking the breath or having something that kind of reminds them, okay, let me take a walk or let me, you know, I need to just kind of like stay calm and really think about this more rationally. They’ll they can realize that what they’re hearing and what the meaning that they’re putting on it might not exactly be what their spouse is intending for the words to mean.

So it’s interesting. I mean, of course, divorce, you know, people are not at their best and people feel defensive a lot of times. They don’t trust their spouse. They have their backup. So, you know, it makes perfect sense all this stuff is happening. But unfortunately, if you don’t deal with these kinds of things, the divorce could take a pretty nasty turn and it will be a lose-lose for everybody, including that angry spouse.

Joe Dillon: Yeah, last question for you. You know, given that we’ve been practicing since 2008, we’ve seen a lot and we’ve been through a lot of economic times, political times, world geopolitical times. Have you seen a difference in either the behavior of your clients or the issues that they bring up over the course of your time working with them? You know, I myself, for example, have noticed that focus is very difficult to come by now. It’s more difficult to get clients to complete discovery. Their negotiations seem to be a bit more heated than they used to be from economic pressures and when we do budgets. So I’m curious to see if that at all has affected the folks that you work with.

Cheryl Dillon: Yes, I’d say so. You know, I think that what’s happening in the economy and what’s happening with politics, you can’t help but have it affect your life. And even if you’re not reading the news all day or even though, you know, maybe you’re not watching your bank account all day, you’re aware that maybe the climate isn’t so happy right now and that people are really divided. They feel divided. You know, I know that I don’t like to talk about politics in public, but there’s a lot that’s making us feel really scared and upset. There’s a lot of things that are unsettled. No matter what beliefs you have, it’s just right, just feels different right now in the world.

And so I think that people are that level of stress is just getting compounded with the divorce. So now you’re just dealing with situations where people they’re just fried and overwhelmed and exhausted. So that’s an issue. I think also social media being just so addicted to the phone and always, you know, checking the phone or the phone is chiming or like they’re on alert with their work. Like you know, you used to go to work and when you went home you were done and now it doesn’t stop, right? So that affects sometimes scheduling the sessions or having people be fully present during the sessions. It affects what’s happening for them again the distraction.

And I think that just all of these things is creating situations where even though people want the help and even though people don’t like how they’re feeling, right, they don’t know how to get out of it. So they’re just too tired to do something about it.

Joe Dillon: It sounds like, yeah. You know, it’s a lot. Things are pretty heavy. So it’s a lot.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. And then also, I think with respect to the sessions and what we’re talking about, some of the things we’re talking about are things that we never talked about ever before, you know, when we started out. They just weren’t problems back then, you know.

Joe Dillon: Right. Yeah. Is AI gonna take my job? Right.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. Yep.

Joe Dillon: Oh my goodness. Well, I appreciate the time talking here today. And for our listeners, if you’re new to visiting with us here, Cheryl and I, we plan on doing these podcasts here to hopefully give you some value and give you some insight. I don’t want you to feel so alone when you’re in the divorce process. A lot of times when you go through this, even though many people get a divorce, sometimes you can feel like the only person going through it. So we want to hopefully support you with some candid, real conversations of the things that we’ve seen and we’ve heard from our clients because if you’re thinking or feeling those same things, you’re not alone. Until next time, I’m Joe Dillon.

Cheryl Dillon: I’m Cheryl Dillon.

Joe Dillon: All right, there you go. And thanks for joining us here on the Equitable Mediation Podcast. Take care.

Cheryl Dillon: Thanks.