Intentional Divorce Insights: Joe Dillon on Financial-Focused Mediation

Leah: Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I’m Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I’ll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness.

Welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. We have a really special guest today. I just met Joe before we started recording, but I’ve actually been following his work for a really long time. He puts out fantastic content online, so I’m really excited about our conversation and hope you’ll look up the resources that Joe and his team have available.

Joe is a pioneer in divorce mediation who has been helping couples navigate the end of their marriages with dignity and financial wisdom for over 17 years. As co-founder of Equitable Mediation Services, he combines his MBA in finance with specialized training from Harvard, MIT, and Northwestern University to guide couples toward agreements that protect both their emotional well-being and their financial futures.

As a child of divorce who witnessed firsthand the devastating impact of attorney-driven litigation on families, Joe brings personal experience combined with professional expertise to help couples focus on creating agreements that work for everyone, especially the children.

Joe pioneered virtual divorce mediation in 2011, nearly a decade before others adopted online practices during the pandemic. His results speak for themselves – Equitable Mediation Services maintains a 98% case resolution rate, significantly higher than the industry average of 70%.

As a sought-after expert, Joe has been featured in Business Insider, Newsweek, Forbes, Huffington Post, Yahoo, MSN, and the Daily Mail. His blog has attracted over a million visitors. Joe believes divorce doesn’t have to be destructive – with the right guidance and expertise, couples can part ways amicably while protecting what matters most. Welcome, Joe.

Joe: Thanks for that intro, Leah. I’m not sure who you were talking about, but that guy sounds all right. Looking forward to talking.

Leah: I’m fascinated by the success rate you’re having. Can you talk about what you specifically do that helps couples successfully navigate this process? I know mediation gets a bad reputation online, and I’m a big proponent of mediation, so let’s talk about how you’re seeing people have this much success.

Joe: That’s a great question. As you know, we’re kindred spirits – we’re both financial professionals. I like to remind clients the numbers don’t lie. A lot of times in divorce, the issues are very emotional and people’s emotions are heightened. They go online, talk to their friends and family who start whispering in their ear, “Don’t settle for anything. You can do better.”

There’s all this misinformation about what someone’s entitled to. When you really boil it down to brass tacks and look at budgets and balance sheets – the total sum of assets and liabilities – that’s it. When we look at those numbers and put them in front of people, because a lot of people don’t do budgets, they don’t know what they’re spending. Therefore, they don’t know what their lifestyle costs or how much they need in support or could afford to pay.

Similarly, many people don’t know their house value, what’s in their 401k, or how much is on their credit cards. We have so many things that auto-debit our credit cards that we don’t know how balances build up over time.

We go through a process, and this is what I recommend to everybody: do the discovery before the deciding. People will come into a session saying, “We already talked and decided child support’s going to be this and alimony is going to be that.” I ask, “How’d you come up with those numbers?” They say, “I talked to ChatGPT.”

When you start going through a process and put the pay stubs, tax returns, and bills on the table and say, “This is really what it’s going to cost you. Here’s what you spend on your kids,” and start pushing back gently by showing them the data and numbers, it’s really hard for them to argue. Even if they’re not happy about it, you get to that place in mediation where they say, “Okay, I see.”

That’s how we get people into agreement – we prove to them that what they’re doing is going to work in the short and long term, is a good compromise, and it’s hard to refute when you’re looking at all the information. Our approach is analytical. We don’t ignore the emotional side, but the numbers don’t lie, and when you put it in front of people like that, it’s really hard to argue with.

Leah: I really want to highlight a point you made – discovery before decision. That is critical. So often people are putting the cart before the horse, and that’s where we get circular conversations because we have a little information, make decisions, then more information becomes available and we realize that wasn’t the right decision.

Joe: Exactly. The example I use is like if you and I were going to dinner in a city we’ve never been to and I said, “Where do you want to go?” You’d be like, “What’s around here? What are my choices? What’s close? How are we getting there? What’s on the menu?” That’s the discovery process – getting all that information so you can make informed decisions.

As new information comes to light, people want to start changing their minds, and that creates conflict because one party says, “We agreed on the support number. You can’t change your mind.” In mediation, they can, especially in light of new information. If you get it all out on the table up front, it avoids a lot of that.

Leah: You’ve said that mediation is about looking through the windshield, not the rearview mirror. What does that mean practically for couples caught up in the hurt and anger of divorce?

Joe: That’s a great quote by Bud Bagot – “View life through the windshield, not the rearview mirror.” I love what you do with “intentional divorce.” I hope no one enters divorce thinking, “I’m going to really screw this up.” Nobody does that, but they also don’t set the intention of having an amicable divorce, coming to agreement, remaining calm, or looking forward.

That’s part of what we level-set with people. The time for arguing is over. Whatever got you to my office, I call day zero. This is the first day. We need to move forward. My job as a mediator is to help you craft an agreement that’s going to govern your co-parenting relationship and financial relationship moving forward.

You’ve said you no longer wish to be married. So why would we spend time talking about all the past problems and transgressions? Those are things that are only going to keep you married. You’ve come to me for a divorce – a separation. Let’s help you get there, and we can only do that if we look forward.

A lot of folks want to bring up the past: “Well, you never did this before.” That might be true, but maybe now moving forward, you will. As a single parent, you’re going to have to. A professor I had at Northwestern had a great line when folks get into this spiral – she’d take her glasses off slowly, lean in, and say, “This sounds like an old argument.” Once you get people to recognize those patterns aren’t serving them, that’s where you unlock the magic of mediation.

Leah: I’ve seen this in my own divorce and co-parenting relationship. I was concerned that their dad wasn’t going to help with homework because I had been the primary parent while married. But I’ve been so impressed with how he’s stepped up and how our dynamic has changed over the years. We’ve both evolved as people, as parents, as co-parents, and really allowing each other to have that space.

Joe: People forget that the person I was yesterday, I’m not that person today. That evolves over time. The moment when you’re in the divorce process is the worst moment of your life – studies show death and divorce are some of the most stressful events. Just remembering that and looking through the windshield means having faith that it will get better over time.

Your relationship with your ex will get better, your kids will adjust, but you have to take an active role. You can’t just lean back and fold your arms. You need to actively engage as a parent and work on your relationship.

I even tell clients they should go to couples counseling. They think I’m crazy, but you’re still a detached family unit – still a mom and dad with kids. I’m not asking you to repair your marriage, just to communicate so your kids can see a role model. Kids are looking to you as adults, and they’re sponging what your relationship dynamic is.

Leah: I love that you have the financial background. What are some common mistakes you see couples make when they’re in reactive mode versus making deliberate financial decisions?

Joe: The biggest one when it comes to financial issues is they’re trying to take out their anger financially on their soon-to-be ex, and they don’t realize it’s really harming their kids.

For example, every state has a child support guideline. We’ll run the guidelines, show them the numbers, and the person paying gets angry and says, “How come you need so much money? What are you going to do with it?” They haven’t done budgets, probably haven’t been to a grocery store lately to see that eggs cost a fortune.

These monies are going to support that other household. Even alimony is going to afford that other parent a lifestyle commensurate with the person paying. I’m not saying both will be well off, but trying to use the financial process to exact revenge harms the kids too.

The recipient might have to live in a studio apartment while the other person’s in a three or four-bedroom house. They might not be able to take kids out for fast food or movies while the other parent can. It creates friction because kids say, “I don’t want to go to Dad’s/Mom’s because I don’t like their place.”

I tell people to dial back the emotions and make this a business transaction. Recognize that each of you have expenses, and it’s good that your lifestyles are roughly on par with each other.

Leah: There can be tremendous fear around financial decisions because people aren’t taking time to understand what this means from a cash flow perspective. If you don’t have that budget in place, how do you know if you can afford that level of support?

Joe: Exactly. Another issue here in America is health insurance. Typically the party receiving support is the lower earner and often works inside the home or has a job without health insurance. Now they have to get their own health insurance. Depending on age and conditions, you’re looking at hundreds if not thousands of dollars a month, and that wasn’t in their budget or purview.

You have to do the work and get this information because you’re predicating support conversations on your budget. If you’re missing this $1,000 a month piece, that’s a big nut you’re missing.

Leah: I’m always surprised around health insurance conversations where people are misinformed. You can literally call a health insurance broker and get information to become educated, but people often blindly enter those conversations without that information.

Joe: You made a great point I want to emphasize – get educated. That means talking to professionals like you, like me, like a broker, financial advisor, whoever. Ask, “What am I in for? What should I expect?”

Make no mistake, an educated client is a good client. If somebody walks into my office saying they read our guide to the five options of divorce and understand mediation is the way they want to go, that’s great. Sometimes I’ll tell people mediation isn’t appropriate because I want them to get the best result in their situation.

That’s all part of getting educated from a professional who knows it, who’s been there, who understands. Then you can make informed decisions – which divorce method to use, how to negotiate financial support, how to divide property. You don’t have to do it yourself, but it’s good to have base knowledge to ask intelligent questions.

Leah: I know you have a free course about divorce mediation on your site. Tell us about that and how people can access it.

Joe: If you go to our website, there’s a resource center broken out by topics – courses and kits, divorce issues, divorce support. If you click on courses and kits, you’ll see our course offerings. One is the free guide to divorce mediation – a multi-part video course covering what it is, how the process works.

I talk about the four big buckets – parenting, child support, alimony, property division – how mediation works in all those areas, whether you need a lawyer, the basics. We encourage people to watch that course, learn about mediation, and see if it’s right for them.

We want to respect clients’ time, and if mediation won’t work because it’s voluntary and both spouses need to be willing, then at least you learned about the four big bucket topics. On our website, you can also find a guide on how to choose a lawyer because we’re not anti-lawyer, we’re anti-conflict.

If you come into mediation and can’t mediate, we want you to find a mediation-friendly or collaborative divorce-friendly lawyer, not somebody who’s going to pull the pin out of the grenade and blow this thing up.

Leah: I do think mediation gets a bad reputation for various reasons, but I think the biggest reason is that people enter mediation unprepared. The more you can educate yourself and understand the process, the more successful you will be.

Joe: And have realistic expectations. One thing you know in any relationship – if you attack first, the person on the receiving end is immediately going to back up against the wall. They’re not going to want to help you.

Think about calling customer service and saying, “Your product is terrible.” This person didn’t make the product – they’re trying to help you. If you put the guns in the holsters, come in willing to compromise, keep emotions calm, and have those conversations, you’re going to get a better result because people want to help nice people.

When people come in saying, “You’re the mediator, you’re supposed to get me $10,000 a month in alimony,” that’s not my job. My job is to help have conversations, create options, explore options, but ultimately the decisions lie with the couple. That’s empowering because with mediation, you get to decide and create the agreement, not some third party who just walked into their courtroom.

Leah: I love that you mentioned going to court and not knowing what the outcome will be. People always say, “I’ll just go to court and get…” or “My attorney says if I go to court, I’ll get…” But the reality is I see some weird things coming out of court that nobody would have expected.

Joe: One of my favorite stories – I always keep everything confidential – was a child support negotiation where the gentleman was adamant he didn’t have to pay child support. Not that he didn’t want to, but that it was “all a lie, a scam, not real.” I showed him the guideline, calculator, and statutes.

I asked what he thought would happen in court. Without missing a beat, he smiled, leaned back, and said, “I’m a likable guy. The judge is going to love me. When the judge sees me, he’s going to say, ‘Don’t worry about it. You don’t have to pay child support.'” I said, “Well, good luck with that.”

As a mediator, I can’t tell you what to do, but you might want to reconsider that position and talk to an attorney because that’s not how this works, and judges won’t take kindly to that.

One client called us from the courthouse hallway crying because they didn’t know they were supposed to paper clip documents, not staple them, and the judge kicked them out of the courtroom. That’s the kind of stuff you never know when you walk through those doors.

A New Jersey Bar Association study showed only 2% of divorce cases make it to a judge. You think you’re going to get your day in court, but they’re going to push you back to court-ordered mediation, private mediation, or collaborative divorce. They only want to handle the big crazy cases.

In mediation, we want to empower you to make those decisions and control your own destiny because when the judge decides, chances are neither of you are happy.

Leah: Joe, I could literally talk to you all day. I appreciate the education and content you put online. There’s so much for people to learn without even talking to you. Tell people where they can find out more about you.

Joe: The best place is our website, equitablemediation.com. Be careful when you type it – those are two hard words to spell. When you get there, you’ll see “resources” in the corner – that’s the resource center where you’ll find all this great content.

You’ll see a button that says “talk to us” because we want you to feel comfortable. We’re people, we’re humans. My parents litigated their divorce, Cheryl has been divorced. We’ve been where you or your kids are.

That talk to us button lets you schedule a free call with Cheryl. She’ll explore mediation with you and see if it’s right for you. If it makes sense, you and your spouse can schedule a meeting with me. We’re always trying to figure out if mediation is a good fit and if we’re a good fit.

Go to the resource center and you’ll find our most popular content, including that free course. It’s all free – we’re not trying to collect all your information like Facebook. Just click, read, and enjoy.

We practice in six states: Washington, California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. You’ll also find state-specific guides to divorce in each state – how things work, what they’re called, the process, and frequently asked questions.

Leah: Thank you, Joe, for your time and for being with us today. For our audience, thank you for being with us. I know you’re going through a difficult time right now. We’re here to provide education and inspiration. Don’t hesitate to reach out if you have questions or there’s a topic you want to hear more about.