Podcast: Divorce When You Have Complicated Kids

Gabriele Nicolet: Hey there and welcome back to the Complicated Kids podcast. I’m your host Gabriele Nicolet. I am a toddler whisperer, a speech therapist, and a parent coach. And today I have Joe Dillon. Joe, welcome.

Joe Dillon: Hello. Thanks for having me.

Gabriele Nicolet: Thank you so much for being here. Joe is a divorce mediator. And so we’re going to be talking about divorce today. But before we do that, Joe, tell us something about yourself and how you got into this line of work.

Joe Dillon: Sure. Well, I guess my parents litigated their divorce when I was a kid, so I’m an only child, so, you know, therapists would have a field day with me. Hey, yeah, gee, what a giant surprise that this guy’s a divorce mediator. Trying to avoid conflict, help people resolve. So at the end of the day, really, my background is finance and negotiation. And so, I have an MBA in finance, and it just seemed like a natural fit for me. When we think about divorce, three of the four issues are clearly financial in nature, and even parenting plans, you know, they have a hand in determining things like child support and property division. So, I always say three and a half of the four issues. And so, I really try to use my background in negotiation and finance to help people avoid, you know, litigated divorces, courtroom battles, you know, help them resolve the issues of the divorce, you know, privately, confidentially, and basically directly face to face. That’s pretty much it.

Gabriele Nicolet: I love this. Okay. So you’re the person who sits in the middle of the two parties and kind of translates between one and the other so that everybody wants to sign the piece of paper and go about their business.

Joe Dillon: Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. Translates. As I often say to people, think of me like a UN interpreter. I speak German, I speak French, I speak Italian. Not that I speak any of those languages, but you know, people have different ways of communicating. And part of what we see in a lot of conflicts is that people are frustrated because they’re communicating one way and it’s not being received by the other party and they’re like, “Why don’t you understand me?” It’s like, “Well, because I speak German and you’re yelling at me in French, for example.” So that’s a lot of what I do is trying to help parties understand the other because a lot of times they’re in agreement, they just don’t realize it though.

Gabriele Nicolet: Have you ever had couples, I’m putting the cart way before the horse here, who go to mediation and decide they don’t want to get divorced?

Joe Dillon: Very rarely in my years, 17 years in private practice, 28 years mediating. I’d say I’ve had two of those couples, you know, and a lot of the times because, you know, we know in divorce that studies have shown someone who initiates a divorce, according to, you know, research has been thinking about it for two years and one month. So they’ve really been thinking about this. This is usually not a snap decision that somebody’s like, I want a divorce and then that’s it. So they’ve been thinking about it for a while. Probably been in counseling, therapy. And so when you get to the point where you call a mediator or a lawyer, you know, chances are good that you’ve been thinking about it for a while. A lot of people, there’s a misconception. A lot of people think, well, we haven’t tried. And it’s like, well, we’ve been to four marriage counselors and I’ve asked you to do X, Y, and Z for the past five years. I’m done, you know, and so we get mostly that.

Gabriele Nicolet: Okay. And so one or both of the parties will call you and what happens?

Joe Dillon: Yeah. So, usually one person reaches out, but because mediation needs to be a mutual decision. Because I advocate for both parties, they need to both be willing to mediate. So, one person will reach out. Usually they’ll speak to my partner, who’s also my wife, Cheryl. She’s our divorce coach, so she helps with the kind of emotional piece of the puzzle. And then they’ll speak to her, you know, 15 minutes and say, you know, get some basic questions answered. And then Cheryl and this person will determine, hey, is mediation a good fit for us? And if it is, then they schedule a one-hour meeting with me. So for me, I’m always meeting with people one-on-two. I never meet one-on-one. I’m a neutral. I work for both people, whereas Cheryl always works one-on-one. So that’s what’ll happen. They’ll meet with me. The three of us decide if mediation is a good fit. If so, you know, they become a client and then we go through our mediation process.

Gabriele Nicolet: And how long does that particular, how long might that take? Is there an average?

Joe Dillon: Yeah. You know, end to end. Our kind of shorthand is, you know, lawyer-driven divorces will take two to three years. Mediated divorces will take two to three months. And so, you know, obviously, you know, when you’ve got complicated kids that expands a little bit. Because there’s a lot more depth that needs to be covered and a lot more topics that need to be discussed. But for the most part, you know, we see our clients from the time they become a client, you know, sign the contract to be our client to the time I’m handing them an agreement, I’d say even really on the outside would be four months.

Okay. So then you know once they finish mediation then of course you know you’re at the mercy of the courts, the system where you live because some states there’s no waiting period and you can get a court date pretty immediately and then some states, for example like where I’m at, California, one of the states we practice in, there’s a six-month waiting period and sometimes it can take them nine months to send you the divorce decree. So it all depends, whereas New Jersey where we also practice you could be, you’re divorced that day when you go into the courtroom. So really, you know, that piece of the puzzle is a little out of our control.

Gabriele Nicolet: Yeah. You teed it up for me so nicely by mentioning the complicated kids, which is, as you know, what we talk about on this podcast.

Joe Dillon: Absolutely.

Gabriele Nicolet: So, how is this equation, the divorce question, the procedures? What is different when, I imagine there are some things that are different when people have children generally. And then what are the differences when those children have, you know, for lack of a better term, special needs, either developmental or medical needs that supersede kind of the regular run-of-the-mill kids stuff. What happens there?

Joe Dillon: Yeah. So, to answer your question in shorthand, literally everything. So, you know, like it’s the old joke, like how much time do you have, you know? But to keep it manageable so that you know, as we were joking about, people don’t you know fade out and say oh my goodness, this is so much to cover.

Gabriele Nicolet: Yeah.

Joe Dillon: You know the thing that the going in position needs to be that we have a complicated child and we as parents need to do anything and everything we can to make sure that child’s needs come first. And of course, as children, and as a mediator, I’m always reminding parents, no matter whether or not their kids are complicated or not, yes, your kids didn’t ask for this. They still view you as mom and dad. Or mom and mom or dad and dad. So, there is no getting around that fact. However, when you’ve got complicated kids, I’ll break it into what I call the four big buckets. And let’s talk a little bit about each of those so that these are things that can get the listeners kind of percolating if they find themselves in this situation and also as a gentle reminder to their soon to be ex-spouse that it’s also going to require some flexibility on their part. All right. So we’ll kind of dig into it.

The first thing is the parenting plan. Now, as kids get older, we might be more inclined to say, “Yeah, you know, a kid can stay home after high school and be by themselves and, you know, somebody comes home from work at 6:00 and that’s fine.” With a complicated kid, that’s not necessarily the case. So, not only do these kinds of kids need constant supervision, but their parenting time might not be you’re coming home and, you know, watching TV or on your iPad or going to soccer practice. It might be speech therapy, physical therapy. Emotional therapy, all kinds of other types of appointments. So, it’s not necessarily parenting time in the sense of like, yeah, we’re going to go to football practice and I’m going to stand on the sidelines, pick you up, and we’ll go to, you know, the fast food joint down the street for dinner. It’s a lot more complex. So parents need to be aware that when they think about parenting time, they need to understand that that’s not just, oh yeah, I’ll have the kids sleep over my house and, you know, then they’ll get off the bus and I’ll be home at six. So they need to make sure that there’s always coverage and care.

The other thing that really happens when it comes to parenting is emancipation. So, you know, we all like to think of ourselves as adults. Like I do at least, I don’t feel like it, you know, but sometimes, you know, darn it, somehow I grew up. Got older. But you know, most kids we think of it, graduate high school, go off to college, sure, no problem. Then you live on your own. Special needs or complicated kids may never emancipate. They may always be living at home. They may always need supervision. So when you think about parenting in that regard, that then ties into the next piece, which is child support.

Typically, most child support guidelines end at, in my shorthand, I call it the September following the graduation from high school. That’s pretty common. You know, 18, 19, somewhere in there.

Gabriele Nicolet: Okay.

Joe Dillon: Well, what if these kids don’t graduate high school on time or what if they don’t ever leave the house? They don’t go to college, you know. So, we have to also think how do all those expenses get handled for just day-to-day. Food, shelter, utilities, and then what we in our line call extraordinary expenses, medical expenses. Care expenses, therapy expenses. These are things that typically cut off at age 23, regardless of whether you went to college or not. Most states say, “Look, at some point we say to you, age 23, you join the military, you get married, you get a job, or you graduate from college.” So look at that list. Four of those are maybe like unlikely. Maybe they happen, maybe they don’t. But one of them absolutely, you know, hopefully, fingers crossed, you turn 23. Now what?

So this child is 23 but really not independent. So we also have to give special consideration to the child support question. All right? Which then parlays into the alimony question. One of the things I hear a lot and this is a classic argument I hear with couples.

So what I call the parent who worked inside the home because they are not staying at home. Let’s be real clear here. If I had to pay my mom a paycheck for all the crap she put up with, I’d still be paying that loan off 45 years later. You know.

Gabriele Nicolet: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Dillon: Thanks, Mom. You know, owe you my life here. So she worked inside the home, dad worked outside the home. Now, you know, when we have alimony, typically what we see is alimony typically doesn’t last longer than the duration of the marriage. So, let’s say you’ve got a special child and, you know, a complicated kid and they’re seven years old and you’ve been married 10 years and you’re getting a divorce. Do the math on that real quick. You’re going, “This kid’s 17. I’m not going to be able to get a job. I’m not going to be able to be financially independent.” So, special considerations need to be made. This person, even if they have an adult child, may never be able to get a job. They may always be a full-time caregiver. So, again, that has to be taken into account, which then translates into property division.

One thing we know about complicated kids, and heck, I’m guilty of this as well. I love my routine. I set up my coffee cup on the same spot the night before, by the thing and put the spoon and I, you know, at 6:30 I do this, at 7:30 I do this.

Gabriele Nicolet: Yeah.

Joe Dillon: And but now you have a complicated kid and now you’re going to sell your house. No bueno. We need to make sure that we have a stable environment for these kids because change is bad. A lot of times, even for us as adults. You know, change is awkward. It’s uncomfortable. We don’t really want change. And now you’re going to go from, wait, mom and dad are living together and we’re in this house to wait, mom and dad aren’t living together and I’m living somewhere else. Oh boy. And that’s really going to impact development. And we want to create this stable environment for the kids. So sometimes we have what we call nesting plans where we keep the house. And mom and dad rotate in and out or one of them stays there and then the other parent just comes over for dinner for parenting time, stuff like that and then goes back to their place. That’s pretty common.

But even so, we find ways to keep that home stable the best we can. Of course, finances dictate this. But that does require significant sacrifice from the non-residential parent. If you’re saying to somebody else, look, we have to keep this house. And like I said, I live here in California and real estate is insanity around here. And I had a client with a complicated kid who lives basically in the next town over from me, you know, just by happenstance. And I’m like, I know where you guys live. Like, I know what your house is worth. I know the millions of dollars that it costs to keep houses and buy houses here. So, guess what, other spouse? You’re probably going to be renting a room in someone’s house or have a studio apartment. I know that’s not what you wanted at age 52 years old, but this is where we are now. And they were perfectly fine.

And in cases like that, the final thing I’ll say, and I appreciate you hanging in there, is that one of the other pieces of the puzzle with kids, just any kids in general, typically when we talk about residence, we talk about the state of the marital residence. So, pick a state you live in. Let’s say Illinois. You live in Illinois and you live in Chicago. And so, you and the, you know, your spouse and your child live there. Chances are good that divorce is going to take place there. And that means that the child doesn’t leave the state of Illinois without written permission and without a good reason.

And so, we see here in California, for example, people will relocate to Florida because cost of living is lower. And typically, that’s usually a no-no because that isolates one parent. They were like, “Well, I have a job in California or New York or Washington and Seattle.” But I can’t relocate to Florida, but for the, of course, for the special, you know, kids and for their needs, they say, “Okay, we’ll have a different kind of parenting plan. You relocate to Florida. It’s less expensive, and then I’ll come out on summers and holidays and, you know, parents usually make accommodations.” So, I know it’s a long answer to the question and I have to say we’re probably just scratching the surface on that.

Gabriele Nicolet: It was a very clear surface skim. It was a really great, you know, kind of 10,000-foot view of what you’re looking at. I’m going to encourage the listeners at this point to take a deep breath in. Pause, because this is not happening to me and I’m in no danger of becoming divorced at the moment and it’s a lot. And so if you’ve been listening and your heart rate’s jacked up and you’re like, “Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.” Just take a beat. You don’t have to do anything today. We’re just listening to information. It’s all okay.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. And you’re not alone. That’s the important thing. I know a lot of parents of complicated kids feel so isolated, alone, you know, but community is so important as people in general but also working with a professional like me, for example, where it’s like when I get folks like this in my office I’m like, listen, deep breath. Been doing this a long time, this is what I went to school for. You know, I know you guys, it’s a black box. You don’t know what this is all about, that’s why I’m here. So we’ll take it one step at a time. What’s that, what’s there’s an old adage about how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Gabriele Nicolet: Yeah, totally.

Joe Dillon: That’s what this is. That’s really what this is. So that’s, at this point listeners, take a deep breath, you know, you’ll find professionals who can help and walk just step by step. That’s all.

Gabriele Nicolet: I have two, let’s, I think we’re going to do two more questions and then we are going to wrap up unfortunately because as with many of my guests I was telling you before we hit record I feel like I would like to talk to you all day and find out all the things.

Joe Dillon: There you go.

Gabriele Nicolet: In how many states are you able to practice and is there like a normal amount of states that people practice in?

Joe Dillon: Yeah, typically people will practice in one or two states. We practice in six.

Gabriele Nicolet: Okay.

Joe Dillon: And so we practice in Washington, California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. And really, we pick those states because they tend to be the most mediation friendly. Now there are other states that support mediation, but as you would imagine as a practitioner we want to make sure we understand how things work in a particular state before we go in. Every state has its own guidelines and requirements and their own forms and the way you need to draft agreements. And so we want to make sure that we’re well-versed, we study, we take the courses, you know, we belong to the professional societies and really, you know, dig into that. But I’d say, you know, really one thing you want to understand when you speak to someone is not only are they familiar with complicated kids, but are they familiar with the way things work in the state in which they practice. Because the perfect example is the federal government in 1984, prior to that, child support was the wild west. It was up to the judge. So the judge would just randomly pick a number. So the federal government came in and said, “Hey, states, you have to come up with a repeatable way of calculating child support.”

Gabriele Nicolet: Mm-hmm.

Joe Dillon: So, we now have 50 different child support models. Yay. So, nice work everybody, you know. So that really didn’t, it helped a little, I guess, you know. So make sure whoever you’re working with knows what they’re doing where you live. That’s important. I think what I’d love for you to do, tell us a short version, short story about a client either that, because it was particularly challenging and it worked out well or something that was particularly easy and it worked out well, but give us, give us a flavor, give us a story if you will.

Joe Dillon: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So, one that comes to mind, client couple I worked with last year, they had a daughter, daughter was, I believe, 26 and daughter was wheelchair bound and really needed full-time care. And so really what wound up happening was the caregiver happened to be the wife and the wife was in a line of work, real estate agent, and so could do that in off time. Didn’t have to go to an office 9 to 5, but the father, the husband, he traveled for his job like three weeks a month. So what wound up happening was it was challenging because on one hand the wife said, I need more help. If you want me to earn an income I need more help. But similarly the husband said, but if I don’t travel, he was on commission, so if I don’t travel I don’t get paid and I can’t support you and our daughter.

And it was really, it was one of those moments where, you know, you just, your heart broke because they were both really trying. You could just tell like they were both just broken about it. Because they understood and they were just venting their frustrations. And I think that’s also part of what, where this turned out well is we were able to actually for probably one of the first times help them hear each other and say, you know what, you guys are both awesome. Like I was really impressed. I’m like, listen to the two of you, how hard you’re working to put your daughter first. Like how much you’re putting yourselves totally aside and out there.

And so this couple in this example, they said, “You know what? Let’s move to Florida.” And they actually wound up both moving to Florida. This gentleman, even though he traveled for his job. So he’s always on the road anyway. Now, granted, his territory happened to be in the western part of the United States, but he said, they were in the Miami area. They moved to the Miami area, and he said, “You know what? This is what it’s going to take instead of a, you know, and when I say this, you know, when you talk $2-3 million houses in California, those are 1500 square feet. We’re not talking, you know, palatial estate. That house in Florida is $450,000 currently.”

So they were able to sell their home, bank those proceeds, buy a home for the mother and the daughter in cash, fly out of Miami back and forth and they were able to at least during the week he was home, he went over and lived at the house with mom and the daughter and was the caregiver and arranged to work from home. So, it was really out of the box thinking. They really uprooted their life. They really put the needs of their daughter first. And I got to say like salute, hats off. That was one of those like bravo you guys, like I’m proud to be working with you because this is what it means to put kids first. It’s not easy. And it requires a lot of sacrifice and a lot of change. But they were able to do it. And I’m always loath to check in on people. But that’s a couple that like you’d like to reach back out to and be like, “How are you guys doing?” You know, you don’t really want to hear from your divorce mediator, but you know, I always think of those folks. When people go above and beyond to do something like that, it means a lot to me that they do that because I know how hard it is. So, that’s a good story, I guess, to kind of end our time here.

Gabriele Nicolet: I love that and it makes me think what you said very briefly about your wife and maybe she’d like to come on and talk about her side of this work because it does, I imagine that it requires a fair amount of coaching. Maybe more for others, less for others, but for some, but to really get those priorities into a lens and an order where one has clarity about what one wants to do.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. Yeah. And what needs to be done. I think that’s it. Look, if my life had turned out the way, you know, I wanted it, I would be the starting first baseman for the Chicago Cubs, and I would also be the lead guitar player in a famous rock band. I would be doing both of those things at the same time. And I probably would also be a cowboy, a fireman, and an astronaut, you know, just if I’m spitballing here, you know, Gabrielle. So, but you know, I’m a divorce mediator. I love what I do. But, you know, that probably wasn’t a life plan. And that’s what we as adults have to realize. We got this situation. Here we are. Let’s make the best of it and do what needs to be done.

Gabriele Nicolet: It strikes me that you create an incredible sense of safety and for your clients and that it comes through loud and clear just in our conversation here. So thank you. I will thank you on behalf of people who are going through that difficult experience for your work. And I will also thank you for coming and talking about it because it’s not something that people want to talk about necessarily.

Joe Dillon: I know.

Gabriele Nicolet: Because it’s hard.

Joe Dillon: It really is. Yeah. And the more you know upfront, the better off you’ll be and the better your expectations will be. So if we go into something having an inkling about what it’s going to be like, it removes that fear and anxiety and we can focus more on the decisions that need to be made rather than freaking out about what’s around the next corner. And that’s what we try to do and thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. We try our very best to put people at ease and make them feel as comfortable as they can given the nature of the situation.

Gabriele Nicolet: Yeah. Joe Dillon, if people want to learn more about you and your practice, what do they do?

Joe Dillon: So, best place is probably our website. Our company is Equitable Mediation. So, equitablemediation.com, not meditation. We get a lot of that. So, make sure you type very carefully like I do. Equitablemediation.com.

And on the website, there’s a whole bunch of information about divorce, mediation, the process. We have a learning center where we offer all kinds of free stuff. You know, we’ve been blogging for 17 years. You’ll find all kinds of state specific guides, information on how alimony, child support, parenting, property division, all these things work. As we like to say, an educated client is a good client for us. This way, they have a realistic idea of what the road ahead looks like and what their expectations are. And there’s free courses you can take. And really, just take advantage of the resources. That’s what we’d say. And if you’re ready and you live in a state we practice in, like we talked about, you can schedule a free call. There’s a little button that says talk to us. We mean it. Click the button. You’ll get to talk to Cheryl, ask your questions so that you can feel a little more comfortable about, you know, what might be lying ahead for you.

Gabriele Nicolet: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It’s been my pleasure.