Don’t Pick the Scab Podcast: Interview with David Webb

David: Welcome to Don’t Pick the Scab podcast. Today we welcome Joe Dylan, a seasoned divorce mediator with a unique blend of financial expertise and deep personal insights. Joe specializes in guiding couples through complex divorce negotiations, helping them reach fair agreements that protect both their emotional well-being and financial stability. His empathetic approach and strategic guidance make difficult conversations more manageable, especially for men over 40 navigating the challenges of divorce. Joe’s experience can provide invaluable clarity, ensuring that men can move forward with confidence, fairness, and financial security. Get ready to learn how effective mediation can transform the divorce experience. All right, Joe, tell us about yourself, and I got some questions for you.

David: Welcome to the Don’t Pick the Scab podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during, or after a divorce.

Joe: Thanks for having me. A little bit about me – I’ve been mediating 28 years, in private practice for 17. My background is actually finance and negotiations. I have an MBA in finance, so it’s a non-traditional route. Most people think of mediators as either lawyers or mental health professionals, and about 90% of divorce mediators fall into those two buckets. The other 10% are the classic “other,” and of that other category, I’m probably one fraction of that 10%.

I really feel like having this kind of background brings clarity, focus, and analysis to the process and helps people make better decisions. When you think about it, three of the four issues in a divorce are financial – child support, alimony, property division. So 75% of your divorce involves numbers. By using a process that focuses on the numbers, we’re able to help clients have realistic settlements that help couples understand what’s possible rather than what they’re entitled to or what their friend told them they should get. That’s where we take a lot of emotion out of the process. We treat it like a business transaction, and at the end of the day, our 98% case resolution rate speaks for itself. We’re able to guide almost everybody through. It works. It might not be the most fun you ever have – I’m not here to be your best friend. I’m here to help you avoid your divorce blowing up so you can see your kids, have some money in your bank, and move on with your lives.

David: What led you to become a divorce mediator? What do you find most rewarding about your work?

Joe: I am the classic case of “this won’t happen to me.” My parents litigated their divorce back in the 80s, before mediation was really a thing. Mediation’s been around since the 60s – California started divorce mediation in 1961 – but this was back before mediation was common. They had the lawyers, they had the courtroom battle. It went on for a few years with screaming and yelling. I sat in the back of the courtroom – good times. My father’s Irish, my mom’s Italian, so two very calm, mellow nationalities with placid personalities like Lake Placid.

It was such a battle that they got so mad at each other that the last time I saw my father was in the courthouse hallway when I was 15. That was it. I didn’t see him, never had parenting time, never heard from him again. In 2019, I got a letter that he died and that was it. So that was my relationship with him basically. In those years before he moved out and then they were fighting and not talking, I really only had a relationship with him for about 10 years.

As I got older, I always found that I avoided conflict. I was always the peacemaker. I always wanted everybody to stop yelling. I was working in corporate for a while, doing big, high-powered financial negotiations, multi-million dollar contracts, working with lawyers and legal teams and clients and customers. I was having lunch with my mother-in-law one day and she said, “I have a friend who’s a mediator. I think you would be good at that.” This was going back to probably 2007. I had been mediating in a corporate setting, just not in the divorce world.

Back in 2007, I started taking classes and in ’08, we opened up Equitable Mediation. Really, it’s my experience as a kid of divorce, a litigated divorce, watching my mom struggle financially because she gave up my dad’s pension in exchange for the house. She was only working part-time at the time, so the numbers didn’t really work out. She worked three jobs, and I just watched this whole thing unfold and thought, “Man, it doesn’t have to be this way.”

That’s the story I bring to this process because I can tell you the way it could go sideways. There are a lot of ways. But if we focus on certain things, you have a far better chance of both getting through this as amicably as you can, still remaining co-parents. That’s the key. Your kids don’t care about your marriage – you’re not husband and wife anymore, but you’re still mom and dad. They still want you at the soccer games, at the graduations. I didn’t have any of that.

That’s really my motivation every single day. I tell people, “Your kids don’t care what’s going on here. They want mom and dad, and they want to see you guys on Christmas.” That’s really the personal story. In our profession, you’re not supposed to get in the box with the clients, but I stand really dangerously close to the edge because I care about these people. I see what’s happened to them. That’s my story and what inspires me to do this and keeps me showing up every single day because I feel like every day I go home, that’s another family I may have saved. Those kids will see their parents model that and then that’ll improve their marriages. You know that saying about throwing a stone in the pond and it creates infinite ripples? That’s how I feel about this. I’m kind of proud of that because at the end of the day, I can say, “Hopefully, I’m making the world a slightly better place despite this terrible circumstance.”

David: What are the differences between corporate mediation and divorce mediation? What are the similarities and differences?

Joe: In a corporate setting, there’s really one path forward. I was negotiating sales contracts, so you either get the sale or you don’t. Really both parties seem to want to make a deal. It’s very rare where a customer or a salesperson are going to walk away if they’ve agreed on the price. Then it really becomes a matter of the terms, so there’s a stronger affinity to want to complete your negotiations at that point.

In divorce mediation, however, it’s a voluntary process. We have a phrase called BATNA, which is best alternative to a negotiated agreement. If David and I are going to go out for pizza tonight and you say you want Chinese food and I say we agreed on pizza, my BATNA is to tell you I’m not going out with you, I’m getting pizza. I still get what I want.

In a divorce, there’s really what we call a WATNA, which is the worst alternative to negotiated agreement. Meaning, in mediation, you’re litigating if you don’t mediate. It’s going sideways. We have to really work hard to keep the parties there because a lot of them don’t think that’s going to be bad. They’re like, “Well, if we can’t work it out in mediation, I’ll just get a lawyer. Don’t worry about it.” And I’m like, “You guys have no idea what you’re about to step into.”

In corporate, they’re more willing to make a deal. Everybody’s posturing, lawyers are firing off letters, the mediators are trying to get the sides together, but as the mediator in a corporate setting, you know they’re going to come to terms eventually. You can just put on your big girl and big boy pants and do what you get paid for. But in my world of mediation, I have to work really hard to keep parties there. That’s the biggest difference.

David: How does your financial background enhance your ability to mediate divorce cases?

Joe: I think it’s the key. Guys will appreciate this because a lot of times people come in – I don’t know if you’ve heard of this magical place called the internet where you can learn anything you want, and all of it is true, 100% correct. Throw in one of those chat bots and you’re an expert.

People have this disconnection from reality. They think about what they’re entitled to or what they’re going to get. “Well, I talked to my friend and she got $10,000 a month in alimony and I’m going to get that too.” It’s like, “Yeah, her husband was the CEO of a company and in your case, the husband works as a cashier at the supermarket making $65,000 a year.” We need to bring you back to reality, and there’s a lot of screaming and yelling.

With our process, there are two things we do. First, we do a budgeting process. We have the couple together – this is difficult, but together – work on a joint budget. It’s all of your spending for the previous 12 months because in my experience, there’s a household financial manager. In my house, it happens to be my wife. You can quickly figure out in a couple which one it is. When they do that budget, it’s an exercise in reality because then the uneducated person says, “Wow, we spend $800 a month on groceries or the kids’ karate lessons are $1,000 a month.” It’s like, “Yeah, where have you been?”

We get them to do an individual budget that maps out their forward-looking 12 months as individuals. How much do you need? When you’re getting in those conversations about support, particularly alimony, and one person who was the lower earner is saying, “Well, I need this and I’m entitled to or I deserve $10,000,” I say, “Well, okay, here’s your soon-to-be ex’s budget. If they give you $10,000, you have a $5,000 a month surplus and they’re short $4,000. Does that make sense?”

When you show the numbers to people, I truly believe people in their heart of hearts know what’s right and can be convinced to be reasonable if you show them the information. They might not be happy that I’m right, but we do that budgeting process.

Then we have a balance sheet. Again, treating it like a business transaction. Don’t tell me that you decided you’re going to keep the house. That’s one of many items. I give them a worksheet that puts all their assets and all their liabilities on there. Then we take a look at it as an entire picture. It’s like a portfolio. You wouldn’t save for retirement by just buying one stock. You’re going to buy multiple things, spread out your risk, take some assets, take some liabilities.

We show them the whole picture and say, “Okay, here’s the whole picture. If you get this, what are you going to give in exchange for that?” That’s negotiation. It’s not just take, take, take. If I’m going to go out to the movies with you and we’re going to dinner beforehand, I shouldn’t let David pick both the movie and the restaurant. At least we’re engaged in something that’s fair and balanced.

By having those two processes, it really helps the uninitiated because a lot of people don’t love numbers the way I do. It puts it out in front of them and then they look at it and they’re like, “Yeah, this makes sense.” It’s hard to argue with it. I always play the devil’s advocate – “If I missed something, I’m not a rocket scientist here. If I missed something, convince me. Talk to me.” Ninety-nine times out of 100, the numbers are right there. Numbers don’t lie. That’s how we really keep them on track using those processes and it really helps take that temperature of the room down because it becomes all about the facts.

David: What about that 2%?

Joe: The 2% is angry. Basically what happens is the 2% is the individual who does not want the divorce because they know that if they get the divorce, it’s not going to be as charmed for them in their lives. With those folks, they just haven’t processed their emotions. They pick the scab. They really are so angry at what’s going on because they want to control the process. They want to be the one to file for divorce. They want to be the one to walk out. “How dare you do this to me?” It’s like, “Well, wait a minute. I didn’t do this to you. This is a failing of everybody. It takes two to tango and you have to take a hard look and be willing to take a hard look at the role you played in what happened.”

Some people just aren’t willing to do that. It’s always blame, blame, blame. You know what though? You got one finger pointing, you got three pointing back at you. That’s the classic case. Guy to guy here, men are notorious for this because we’re fixers, we’re controllers, we’re caretakers. We’re men of action. Maybe stop taking some actions and start doing some thinking and some reflecting and some quiet time. Maybe get yourself some chamomile tea – no shame in that – and sit quietly with a book at night and say, “Yeah, maybe I could have done things differently.”

Those are the 2%ers. Unfortunately, they’re the ones that come to the process probably too early. They should have taken some time to process their emotions, work with a divorce coach, work with a therapist, get that anger out so that they could come to the table and be ready to negotiate.

David: But the 2%ers don’t realize when you throw it to the wind and then the judge decides, it can go any way. They’re just making decisions.

Joe: Absolutely. I tell people all the time – I’m a big fan of crime shows, CSI and all this stuff. In 60 minutes, we can solve a complex murder case. But what people don’t realize is that’s a court of law. We know it’s bad to kill somebody. You don’t have to be a lawyer to know you can’t do that. When we see those shows on TV as courts of law, we go, “Well, the person comes in and they’re guilty and it’s very clear-cut.”

In divorce, it’s what we call a court of equity. Meaning whatever a third party – a judge – decides is equitable. What does equitable mean? It doesn’t mean equal. It means fair and equitable. And it’s up to that third party who, by the way, has met you about all of five minutes to tell you what you’re going to get and what’s going to happen for the rest of your life.

Judges are people and they’re wonderful people. Talk about somebody who takes it on all day. These are people who are listening to every single thing. They have a split second to make a decision on what they think is fair. Even though some states – we practice in multiple states, but I’ll pick California – there’s a guideline for child support and there’s a guideline for alimony. But notice it’s a guideline. It doesn’t say this is absolutely the number. Parties can agree to something else. A judge can agree to give something else. It’s just a starting point.

People aren’t clear that if they make a deal in mediation and then they wind up trying to get it litigated, it may actually turn out worse for them because this third party doesn’t know you. That’s why we tell them try to control it in the mediation space. You get to make the decision. You get to control the outcome rather than letting the third party who doesn’t know you dictate what you get.

David: What are some of the biggest misconceptions about divorce mediation?

Joe: Probably the number one is that I’m going to tell you what you’re going to get. People are like, “Well, you’re going to tell me how much alimony I get or how much child support.” I’m like, “Well, no. I’m going to show you guidelines. I’m going to show you ranges. I’m going to share with you options. I’m going to share what other clients did. I’m going to analyze your situation with you. I’m going to work together to help you guys ask questions and negotiate and go back and forth. But at the end of the day, I’m never going to tell you what to do. That’s what a judge does. A judge decides.”

Mediation is ideal for people who want to be empowered, who want to make their own decisions. I work for both people simultaneously. It’s a tight rope. Think about it. In order to get one person to give something so the other person can get it, I’ve got to be really careful so I don’t look like I’m just advocating for the party who’s getting something. Then I have to remember to shift gears and go the other way and say, “Well, if they give you this, what are you going to give them in exchange?”

It’s a really fine balancing line. People have to understand that you have to come here because you want to make those decisions, not because you want me to tell you what to do. I can share with you what other clients have done – I’ve met thousands of people and looked at their cases. You look at their situations and go, “Yeah, you guys remind me of these five clients I had and let me just throw those options on the table. Let’s see if those work.” But that’s the key. You want to be told what to do, you hire a lawyer and you go to court. You want to be empowered to do it yourself, you work with somebody like me.

David: In your experience, how do men typically handle the emotional aspect of divorce negotiations?

Joe: For the most part, they don’t. My partner, who’s also my wife, Cheryl, she’s a divorce coach, so she works with me here. I handle the financial, tactical, paperwork stuff, all that process stuff. She handles the emotional stuff and it’s totally voluntary. You don’t have to work with her, but you can schedule one-on-one sessions with her. My work is always with both parties at the same time. She’s only working one-on-one.

A lot of that stuff is really the key because the anger will eat you up. It will destroy your life. It’ll destroy your relationship with your kids. It’ll destroy your relationship with your ex. What I see is our clients tend to run between ages 45 and 55. I’m 56, I still think I’m young. I still have plenty of years left on this planet. Let’s split the difference and call it 50. Imagine if you get divorced at 50 and you live to age 95. That’s 45 years of being angry. Why would you do that to yourself? The other person isn’t sitting at home thinking being angry at you. They’re off doing their thing, having their life, having a good time, maybe dating or remarried or whatever.

It’s really important to take that time to process those emotions, to work with somebody you’re comfortable with. There are divorce coaches for dads, divorce coaches for men. You don’t have to work with my wife who’s female. Therapists, all those things that are important for guys to do because we’re just rubbing dirt on it. “I’ll be fine, I’m okay.” You might think you are, but underneath the surface is what’s really percolating.

That’s really what I want listeners to take away from this. If you don’t work on you and you don’t work on you internally, guess what’s going to happen? You’re going to meet somebody else and they’re going to think you’re cool and charming for a few years and this pattern is going to repeat itself. We call them repeat offenders. Obviously you didn’t take the time to figure out what went sideways the first time because now this is the second time or the third time. That’s what you want to help people avoid.

There’s no shame in it. We’re humans. We’re fallible. If you’re not learning, what are you doing? You have to learn and grow. Those guys, those 2%ers who come in are usually the guys who are really angry. They’re probably never going to look at themselves, but hopefully you get some guys in the process where there can be breakthrough moments. These people have been in such dysfunctional relationships, they’ve been in these places where they’ve been arguing for so long. Then there’s this moment in mediation where perhaps the wife cries or breaks down and then the husband is like, “Well, I never knew that. Why didn’t you tell me that?” And she’s like, “I’ve been telling you that for 15 years.” Maybe this is an opportunity to learn about your listening skills, for example.

David: What kind of strategies do you recommend for men to stay focused and calm during mediation?

Joe: I say this as a professional negotiator, not as a divorce mediator, not to make light of the situation, but there’s a reason they call negotiation game theory. It’s a game. If you realize, first of all, the absurdity of it – that you go into something not knowing the outcome, not knowing what’s going to happen – I think part of it is going in with a plan. One of those plans is to remain calm and do whatever it is you need to do.

It’s pretty funny. Off to the side of my desk, I have these little rocks, these little stones, these flat stones that sometimes if I’m stressed out, I just pick this thing up. It’s nice and smooth. One of those skimming stones. I just rub it in between my fingers and I feel instantly better. Find that token or that breathing or that song that you play internally in your head that calms you down. Because if you go in knowing that this too shall pass, I’ve got a plan, I will remain calm, I will go forward with my plan, I will adjust as needed, then you don’t fall prey to the emotions. You don’t fall prey to the trap.

You want to know that it’s going to get bumpy. It’s going to be hard. It really is. But I think if you go in prepared, that’s the key. A lot of people come in like if I say to them, “Say you got in a car in New York and you just decided to drive to California, a small town in California, not Los Angeles, that you could probably easily find, and you didn’t have a GPS and you didn’t have a map. Do you think you’d get there?” Maybe, but it wouldn’t be an easy mission. You need a road map. You need a plan. You need a path. Find your calm, find your center, have your plan, and know that there’s going to be bumps. You have to give to get and that’s really what’s going to get you through this process. There’s no other way around it.

David: How can men ensure that they’re achieving a fair and equitable settlement when they’re using a mediator? What are some things they can look for?

Joe: I always say cash flow is king. Numbers don’t lie. You do those budgets we talked about. At the end of the day you want to make sure that the parties will live roughly on par with each other for some period of time. Most of our clients have kids, so I’ll talk to the guys with kids about that. As much as you just want to exact revenge and you want to get that pound of flesh, we had a client couple – he’s the CFO of a bank, wife worked inside the home raising kids. He had a great lawyer. She had a terrible lawyer. He got to keep the beach house, got to keep the house, kids got all the game systems over there, he’s got the car, all the stuff. She is literally living in an apartment that is adjacent to a railroad track.

Now you’re a 12-year-old boy and you say to yourself, “Well, gee, do I want to go to mom’s house at the railroad track or do I want to go to dad’s house at the beach?” This is a New Jersey client. I’m like, “Listen, man. That’s the mother of your kid. You want your kid to have… because you got a 50-50 parenting plan. So half the time your kid’s going to be miserable living by a railroad track.” You got to think through that stuff. Even though you really want to get that pound of flesh, you got to say, “Well, by giving support to this now ex-spouse of mine, what I’m really doing is creating an environment for my kid and I’m really helping.”

That’s what I think can help people understand what’s fair. It’s not about the hard dollars or the numbers. It’s about the lifestyle. It’s about the circumstances. It’s about is it fair that I can buy both the PlayStation and the Xbox and the Nintendo Switch, whereas my wife is maybe having him do crossword puzzles on pieces of paper? Those are the lifestyle choices we want people to focus on rather than the hard dollars. Are you able to make ends meet? Can you both drive a car? You want somebody driving a 25-year-old car driving your kid around to soccer practice? No, I wouldn’t.

Those are the things I’d say to people to look for. That’s how you know when you’ve got fair agreements in terms of support. When it comes to property, like I said, you use that balance sheet. You look at it all laid out there. The phrase I use is I like to call it the salad bar approach. I love salad bars. I’m obsessed with salad bars. You go down the line – you get the lettuce, the tomatoes, the cucumbers, the carrots. The idea being that you want a little bit of everything. You don’t want a plate of lettuce. You don’t want a plate of just tomatoes.

When you look at it all in one place, you can say, “Well, we each got a car. I got a 401k. You got an IRA. We’re going to sell the house, split the proceeds. I take on this credit card. You take on that credit card.” When I look at the big picture, it looks fair as opposed to just focusing on one asset. Like, you got the house. Yeah, but guess what? The house has a $500,000 mortgage on it and you have a 401k worth $600,000. You got to look at the big picture to understand and that’s really the takeaway. Look at the overall big picture, look at the lifestyle and look at the balance. That’s how I would say to figure out what’s fair.

David: How do you help clients navigate sensitive topics like alimony or property division?

Joe: Those are the big two other than the kids. We always start off with non-numerical things, lifestyle. We talk about what you’ve been doing. What has your life looked like as a married couple? Did you make a decision where one of you was going to stay and raise the kids and work inside the home? Did you move around a lot? Did you buy this house recently or has it been a long time? What are the expectations you each have for your lives moving forward?

When we start getting into the numbers, we first start with those budgets again, to level set. What’s realistic here? What’s needed? You can’t have an intelligent conversation about how much alimony somebody’s going to pay or receive if you don’t know how much somebody has to give or how much someone needs. By putting those factual things out on the table, we sort of deflate the balloon early. We say, “Look, here’s the bottom line. This is what it costs to live.” I’m originally from New Jersey. I lived in Chicago for a while and I live in California now. These are not cheap places to live. When people get divorced in these places, they say, “Oh, well, you could get an apartment for $800.” It’s like, “Yeah, if it was 1995, maybe, but that was 30 years ago.”

By using that factual information, deflating that balloon, that helps with alimony. The same goes with property division. We talk about goal-based negotiation. What’s your goal? Is your goal to keep the kids in the house? All right, let’s find a way to do that rather than, “Well, you got this and I got that.” What’s your goal? “I want to retire early.” Okay, sounds like you might be more interested in keeping more of the retirement assets. What are you willing to exchange for that?

You see the difference? It’s not about the dollars and cents. It’s about the goal. It’s about what’s the endgame here. That’s how you do it. That’s a great mindset for guys to have when they go into negotiations. Not “she’s not getting a penny” or “I’m not giving X dollars.” What’s the goal? To keep our kids in the house? What’s the goal for me to retire? What’s the goal? That’s a nice way to look at it.

David: How has divorce mediation evolved over the years, especially for men over 40?

Joe: The good news is, here’s a great statistic that we track. When we first started practicing, the first year I started keeping track of this, I think it was 2009, we had probably about 10% of our client couples agreed to 50-50 parenting plans, where you had true joint custody, shared custody, physical custody. Now it’s about 85% of them. To a kid who didn’t see his dad, that is really heartwarming because it sends a really strong message that both parents are instrumental in raising kids.

I have to give my mom the biggest shout out because when a 14-year-old boy starts having some questions about girls, normally you’re going to turn to dad, and mom handled that conversation with aplomb and was very open and honest, and even grandma kicked in which I thought was amazing. Those are the things that you don’t think about.

That’s been one of the major evolutions. I think people are starting to recognize and especially they’re recognizing that I don’t have to go the contentious, expensive legal route where I’m going to most likely get the short end of the stick. I can go to the mediation space where it’s going to be more fair, more balanced, save money, save time, and come out with a 50-50 parenting plan or a 50-50 split of assets or something that I get to share how I feel. I’m not just a paycheck or a meal ticket. Hey, listen. Guess what? I want to take the kids on vacation, too. I don’t want to have that apartment over the bakery in downtown. I want the kids to want to spend time, not go, “Oh, dad’s place smells.” You want to make sure that it’s balanced.

I’ve seen that evolve over time. Mediation has become a better space. Here’s a fun fact. Fun air quotes in my world. Not a lot of fun, but 70% of divorces are filed by women. Yet 50% of the people who initiate mediation in our practice are men. So that tells me that they see the value. Even if they’re not the one driving the divorce, they say, “You know what? I think I could get a better deal here. I could get a fairer shake.” And I believe in my heart of hearts, they’re absolutely right.

David: Well, Joe, you have dropped the mic, buddy. Where can men find you on the internet?

Joe: Best place is our website equitablemediation.com. Not spell it meditation. Totally different vibe. Equitablemediation.com. What you’ll notice there, there’s a learning center. I encourage everybody to click on the learning center. I have been blogging for 17 years. I’ve been writing all kinds of articles. One of our number one most visited posts is “How to Survive Divorce as a Man.” I kid you not. It is one of our most popular posts. 25 tips. I’ve interviewed my male friends who are mental health professionals, male clients, former clients, what do they do? Even my buddies I know who were divorced.

Guys, get out there, read, learn. An educated client is a good client for us. Get in that learning center. There’s videos, there’s podcasts. Just absorb information and just know that there’s experts who can help you. We all as men want to say, “I can do it.” Heck, man, I’m an only child. I’m the worst at this. I’m like, “I can do it. I don’t need your help.” Take the help. This is what we go to school for. This is what we’re professionally trained in. Learn, read, gather information, but then work with a professional. Hit up that learning center on equitablemediation.com. When you’re ready, there’s a button says “talk to us.” Click it, schedule a meeting with Cheryl, free call, see if mediation works for you, and happy to help you guys in any way we can.

David: All right. Well, Joe, I appreciate your time, man. We’re gonna do this again because we just scratched the surface. We could do this all day.

Joe: Love to come back. My pleasure.

David: All right, sir. Hey, I appreciate you taking time to hang with me and we definitely have you back.