Podcast: Divorce Doesn’t Have to Destroy Your Life

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Joel: So many guys that I know — and I guess it has to do with being around 50 years old — have gone through divorces. I’ve fortunately never been through one and I know very little about divorce. But I brought someone here, Joe Dillon, that I’m excited to have. He’s with equitablemediation.com and he helps people on either side to get through a divorce in the way that hopefully is the least amount of pain possible. Whether you’re going through a divorce, you’ve been through one, or you know someone — I think this is going to be a big help. Thanks for being here with me, Joe.

Joe: Thanks for having me, Joel. I appreciate it.

Joel: So how did you get into this? Tell us briefly what you do for people who are potentially going through it.

Joe: I’m a divorce mediator. I’m a neutral third party and I work with both sides to help them resolve all the issues they have to get a divorce. I bring options to the table, help them do the discovery forms and worksheets, and we basically help them avoid using lawyers or going through the court process. It’s a more peaceful alternative, far more cost-effective, and takes months instead of years. We try to tell people: if you’ve got kids, if you want to maintain your sanity and your financial health, you definitely don’t need to burn things to the ground. The folks we work with recognize that. They reach out to us because they don’t want to do that, and it’s very rewarding.

Joel: I’ve heard this kind of saying out there — that when a woman asks for a divorce, she’s probably been contemplating it for a couple of years, but it always catches the guy by surprise. Is that true?

Joe: One hundred percent. There’s a law firm out of the UK that did a study about two years ago. They asked everyone who came in to see them how long they’d been contemplating divorce, and when they averaged it all out, it was two years and one month. So typically, one person has been thinking about this for years. And because 70% of divorces are filed by women, that would indicate that a majority of the time it’s the women who’ve been thinking about it. It does catch the guys off guard. My wife Cheryl always teases me — she says, “You’re such a fixer. You always want to fix everything.” And guys are like, “No, but this can be saved. We don’t have to get a divorce.” Meanwhile, the wife has been thinking about this for a long time. The guys have maybe had an inkling but floated along in their own bubble. When the wife finally says, “This is it, I have to move forward,” it really catches them off guard. That’s part of the difficulty for guys in divorce — they want to fix it, they’re surprised by it, but the truth is the writing’s been on the wall for a while and they probably just haven’t recognized it.

Joel: That’s just what I’ve noticed too — maybe they weren’t very aware all this time. So what could a guy do to avoid being in this situation? Not when he comes to talk to you — what should he have been doing two or three years ago?

Joe: I’ll totally stereotype myself here — if somebody had said to me, “You should go to couples counseling, you should go to therapy,” I’d have been like, “I don’t think so.” It’s funny, if you look at our bookshelves — I’m an avid reader and so is my wife — I’ve got books about guys being taken hostage in Moscow and shooting their way out, and my wife is reading about finding your inner child and discussing it with your parents. We’re on complete opposite ends of the spectrum, and a lot of that comes down to the love languages.

For guys, the big thing is recognizing that your wife is not you. She’s different than you. She has different interests and she needs different things. In your world, just because you did X, Y, or Z — like I came home and said, “Honey, I put in a new home gym. Isn’t that great? Now we don’t have to go to the gym and we can save money.” My wife looked at me and said, “Are you implying that I need to lose weight?” And I’m thinking, all I thought was, great, we don’t have to get in the car when it’s 42 degrees below outside and we can work out.

It’s about checking in with your spouse. Asking the classic questions: how was your day, how are things going — and really just trying to stay connected. Making those efforts even when they’re small. We call them touch points. Recognizing that someone did something, saying please and thank you, a hand on the shoulder as you walk by, asking where they want to go on vacation. Going back to my home gym example — I was so proud that I bought this $5,000 Smith cage and rack, these grand gestures. My wife said she would have been happy with a set of 5-pound rubber dumbbells from Target.

We always try to go big. Wives are probably looking for something a little smaller. So my advice to guys is: pay attention to the small stuff. Make the small moments happen. Because that’s a lot of what shows up in our mediations when people are arguing, and wives are saying things like, “I never wanted any of that. I just wanted you to be home on time for dinner once a week. Take the kids to the dentist once a year.” All that little stuff. Keep an eye on it, because that’s the stuff that matters most.

Joel: I got good news, Joe — you and I would be happily married with that gym in the garage.

Joe: That’s right, man. My garage is a three-car garage and it’s a full gym, so there you go.

One thing I’ve done occasionally with my wife is ask, “What could you use more of from me? What could I help more with? What would be better for you?” It’s a little deeper than just how are you doing, but that question worded that way actually gives me something.

You mentioned books — Dr. Gary Chapman and the Five Love Languages. He’s phenomenal. I’ve actually included his lessons in my book, giving him full credit. I think every couple should take that test. It’s free, it’s online, and you find out what really moves your spouse or partner.

Joel: And I’d add one more step — not just asking where you’d like to go on vacation, but actually planning the trip. Being the one to make it happen instead of being a passenger and letting your wife do all of it. So why is it that 70% of divorces are started by women?

Joe: A lot of our clients are in their 50s. They’re either empty nesters or the kids are seniors in high school or freshmen in college. We’ve practiced a long time and we’ve seen how gender roles have shifted. Women are active in the workforce, holding leadership positions. Many of them have felt very strongly about their roles inside the home — raising the kids, maintaining everything there. And then when that role is done, I believe there’s a part of them that says, “I’ve done my time, I’ve played my part, and now it’s my time.” We’re all starting to see that.

I’ll keep this family-friendly, but as the world around us spirals out of control, a lot of us are just thinking, “I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow, so I just want to have some fun and live my life.” That’s what’s happening. They come to a place where they say, “I’m not angry at my husband. I don’t hate him. He’s a great father, a wonderful guy. I still love him, but I just want different things in life.” We hear that all the time. And that goes back to what we were just saying — guys, if you understood what your wife wanted and were checking in on those things, the different things she wanted might become things you want too.

My wife, for example — if she had her way, she would fill our house with dogs. Volunteering at an animal shelter might not be high on my list, but she wants to be involved in that. So I’m going to show an interest and go with her, feed the animals, take them on walks. And then, of course, we came home with dogs.

Joel: How’d that work out?

Joe: It didn’t work out great. But have you ever seen people want to file for divorce and then go through the process and have regrets?

Joel: That’s actually my next question — have you ever seen regrets?

Joe: Absolutely. I just had a client recently and they took the agreement all the way to the end. That’s the beauty of mediation — you’re in the process right before you enter the court system. And we all know what the courts are like. My parents litigated their divorce when I was a teenager and it was a disaster. It took years. They spent tens of thousands of dollars — back in the ’80s, which would be hundreds of thousands today. Once you’re in that system, you’re not getting out.

But in mediation, you’re outside of that. You’re negotiating in private and confidentially. Sometimes folks get to the end of the process and look at each other and realize it’s like a high-stakes game of chicken, and somebody finally says, “What are we doing here?” I’m a neutral third party, so I can’t push them toward divorce or toward reconciliation, but I will jump in and say, “I was asking myself the same thing about you two.”

Sometimes they just need someone like me. I’ve had the good fortune, as a guy, of speaking that language — but I was also raised by my mom and grandmother, so I’ve got that side too. When I’m talking to a couple and I can say to the husband, “What I think your wife is really trying to say is…” and then vice versa, it’s almost like I speak multiple languages. And when they start hearing that, they realize they’re actually on the same page — they just weren’t listening to each other.

It’s like when I was in France with my wife. She speaks French, which is pretty cool. We were in a restaurant and there was a couple from England, and the guy was just yelling at the waitress louder and louder in English, thinking volume would somehow help her understand him. My wife just called her over and told her in French what the guy wanted. That’s kind of what happens in mediation. They’re just yelling at each other, and I say, “You two are saying the exact same thing. You’re just not listening to each other.” So I bring the temperature down. Let’s start asking some questions instead of making accusations.

Joel: You got me curious — if 70% of divorces are started by women, what happens in a woman-and-woman relationship? Is that a higher percentage?

Joe: Interesting question. Despite being a same-sex couple, people still fall into what I’d call stereotypical gender roles. There’s typically one partner who’s more nurturing and home-based, and one who’s more career-oriented and external-facing. We’re not treating people based on stereotypes — we’re just trying to figure out what their interests and goals are and how to speak to them in those terms.

What’s interesting about same-sex divorces — and we’ve worked with both men and women — is that they tend to be more high-conflict. My philosophy is that same-sex couples have fought for so long for the right to marry, and once they finally have it and it ends in divorce, there’s this sadness that falls over them. Almost a disappointment in themselves. Like, “We finally got the right to marry and we’re going to end just like everybody else.” You can see that in a way you don’t always see with heterosexual couples, where divorce is more normalized. And yes, we’ve had more female same-sex couples than male same-sex couples.

Joel: I wanted to ask this earlier — how did you get into this?

Joe: My parents litigated their divorce. So I’m that classic case — sat in the back of the courtroom. My dad was so mad at my mom that he never spoke to me or her again. The last time I saw him was in the hallway of the courthouse, and then he took off, got remarried, had another family. I eventually found out he died through a letter. That was basically my parenting from my father from my teenage years on.

My background is in finance — I have an MBA. A lot of people think you have to be a lawyer to be a mediator, and you don’t. When you think about divorce, three of the four issues are financial: alimony, child support, property division. The fourth is parenting, which doesn’t necessarily have a financial component, although kids do cost money. My background is in negotiation and finance. I have training at Harvard’s Program on Negotiation and at Northwestern. In my corporate days, I used to do high-dollar contract negotiations, financial contracts, working with teams of lawyers, salespeople, and clients — buyouts, mergers, that kind of thing.

Eventually I got downsized from a job and just didn’t want to go back into that grind. My mother-in-law, of all people — and I get along great with my mother-in-law — mentioned she had a friend who was a mediator. I spoke to her. She mediated for the Jersey City Police Department, helping both sides negotiate contracts. And I thought: kid of a litigated divorce, want to avoid that; finance background, and divorce is about money. And the rest is history. I’ve been doing it ever since.

Joel: People avoid court, reach amicable agreements, know they can still co-parent their kids. That’s the outcome.

Joe: That’s the soapbox lecture I give them. Don’t be like my dad. Don’t cut your nose off to spite your face just because you’re angry at your soon-to-be ex-wife. Don’t cut your kids out of your life. And I’ve gone through a lot as an adult trying to reconcile that — wondering what I did wrong, thinking I was an A student, an athlete. I never got that answer.

Joel: I think you know the answer — you probably did nothing. Those were adult things, and you were a kid.

Joe: I know. It’s just hard to feel that when you’re in it.

Joel: Give me some advice for the average guy whose wife just said she wants a divorce. Where do we go from here? Because that’s where I think so many guys are lost, and they often don’t even talk to friends about it.

Joe: The first thing you have to confirm is whether she’s actually made up her mind. Sometimes that’s a symptom of frustration. Think about your own friends — sometimes you’re so mad at somebody you just don’t know what to do, so you freak out on them. Your wife saying “I want a divorce” might mean, “I’m frustrated, I’m angry, I’m at my wit’s end.” So the first thing is to check in and ask: have you been thinking about this? How long? Have you spoken to someone other than your friends about this?

Because more often than not, women will go to therapy, talk to a counselor, use that time to work through their feelings and make the decision. If the answer comes back that yes, she’s done all those things, you can be pretty sure there’s not going to be a chance to change her mind. Women are good at this. They’ve planned. They’ve thought it through. They’ve made their decision. So guys, don’t try to convince or cajole. It’s not going to happen.

We call that the reluctant spouse. We have an internal name for it, and we just know who this guy is when he walks in. Here’s a little fun fact: it takes two people to be married, but only one to file for divorce. So now you have a choice about how you want to go through this process.

On our website we have a guide on the five options for divorce — do it yourself, do it online, mediate, collaborate, or litigate. And you think through which one fits your situation.

As a professional negotiator, there are two questions you can ask that are so powerful. They always start with either “how” or “what.” How can we fix this? What can I do to make it better? Notice it’s not blame or finger-pointing. This is the crossroads, the moment on the bridge: how did we get here? What can we do to change this? That may require counseling or therapy. My wife Cheryl made me read the Five Love Languages — her words, air quotes — but I’m glad she did. We discussed it at dinner. We also read the Gottman book on marriage and workshopped it together. That’s what your wife is looking for — you acknowledging there’s a problem and getting involved in the solution rather than making excuses.

So guys: check where your wife is. Is she saying she’s been thinking about this for a long time, or is she just so frustrated she doesn’t know what to do? Those are the two paths.

Joel: Communication is probably one of the main issues that leads to this.

Joe: And what’s funny is that when we start out — before kids, before we really get into it — we have shared goals. When my wife and I first got married, we asked each other everything: do we want to have a kid? Do we want to start a business together? Do we always want to live in New Jersey? Do we want to move? And then as life goes by, a lot of us just let those goals die on the vine. Your list and my list become completely different and now we don’t have anything shared to work toward.

Cheryl and I started Equitable Mediation about 18 years ago and she’s been working with me pretty much ever since. As unusual as it might be — and it can certainly be challenging at times; she’s probably listening in the other office right now — it’s also rewarding because you have a common goal, something you’re both working toward together.

Here’s another tip for guys. My doctor told me this, and I love this guy — he’s all about treating you as a whole person. He said, “Part of my job is to keep you healthy, and part of that is making sure you have a healthy marriage.” He gave me an assignment: he and his wife each take a legal pad, sit somewhere nice — at the beach, in a park, wherever — and write down their bucket list of everything they want to do. Then hand each other the pads. “I guarantee you’ll learn something about each other.”

Sure enough, I looked at my wife’s list and saw she wanted to spend more time in New England. I had no idea. She went to college in Connecticut, so she wanted to go back to Boston and Connecticut. This exercise brought that out into the open. And on my list, I’d always wanted to do a river cruise through old Europe — through Slovakia and that region. My wife said, “You hate boats.” I said, “I know, I get seasick, but this seems safer. It’s not in the ocean.” So then we each have something to talk about. Great exercise.

Joel: I love that your doctor realizes it’s not just about blood pressure — it’s about your emotional life too. So speaking of emotions, can you walk us through what a guy typically feels going through this process? I want to normalize it for guys who might be feeling alone right now.

Joe: A couple come to mind. The first is disappointment. A lot of guys define themselves by their roles. My background is pretty old school — my dad was 100% Irish, very much a provider mentality. When guys don’t fulfill that role, when their wife wants a divorce, they feel like they failed. Like they weren’t the provider, weren’t the safety keeper. And I want guys to know: you can be disappointed, but it’s not your fault. We all do the best we can. Feeling disappointed is perfectly normal.

The second is fear. I hear guys talking about parenting plans and their biggest fear is they’re not going to see their kids — that their wife is going to hold the kids away, that they’ll be sitting home alone with a frozen TV dinner on Thanksgiving. It’s okay to express that. Being an all-in parent is awesome. It’s okay to say, “I want to do everything I can to see these kids as much as possible and also to support my ex-spouse as much as possible.”

The third is anger. The anger comes through the rejection — you don’t want to be married anymore after everything I’ve done? We see this a lot with high-net-worth guys who have been on a plane three weeks out of every month, traveling internationally, not seeing their kids, coming home burnt out. They’ve got the multi-million dollar house, the cars, the vacations, and they say, “Look at all I’ve done for you. Look at all I’ve given you.” Meanwhile, the wife just wanted him home for dinner. She doesn’t care about the house. She just wanted to sit down as a family.

Then guys start to take that anger out through the process — trying to pay less child support, less alimony. And that’s a mistake. The divorce process should not be a moment to exact revenge. It’s a moment to self-reflect, because it takes two to tango. We all get into arguments with our spouses and in the moment think, “I can’t believe you did that,” and then later, when we’ve cooled off, think, “Yeah, I was kind of a jerk.”

Joel: Disappointment, fear, anger — that’s a process you see a lot of guys go through. And what do you mean by “trappings”? Why is that the word?

Joe: Because the guys feel compelled to keep working these high-pressure jobs, and what happens is — and this goes back to shared goals and communication — I would be retired right now if I had a dollar for every time a client said they can’t believe their spouse doesn’t recognize everything they’re doing for them. The guy is like, “I’m working this job. You drive that car. You wear those clothes. You’ve got the Pottery Barn furniture.” And the wife is like, “That’s great and all, but the trappings are that we’re now trapped in this lifestyle — because I didn’t want this big house, you did. I don’t need the fancy car.”

I live in Southern California and there are more Porsches on the road here than almost any other car. I drive a Subaru Crosstrek because I have a dog and I want to throw him in the back. I don’t want a fancy car. But these folks have gotten trapped in cars and houses and lifestyles, and if they could step back and realize that none of it really matters — what matters is the relationship.

When my wife and I started Equitable Mediation, we were eating nachos for dinner pretty much every night. It was a big deal when we could afford guacamole — we’d been getting by with just cheese and salsa. But we laughed, because we knew we were in this together and it was what we wanted to do. We’d watch reruns of CSI: Miami, our plate of nachos in front of us. We were so happy. We never lived beyond our means, never let our debt get away from us. Humility counts, because it’s the relationship that matters.

Joel: I know people who just don’t understand why my wife and I live the way we do. We’re in a nice house in a great neighborhood, but we drive used cars. Friends have asked me why I don’t buy whatever I want. And I’ve told them that at 50, I’ve learned none of those things made me happy. In fact, buying more things just creates pressure and stress. And then you’re chasing the next thing and the next thing. And when you buy that house that’s four times bigger, the property taxes alone — the electric bill, the cleaning bill — it all adds up.

You’re an expert on divorce and you see that these things make it worse. I hope someone hears that and can communicate it to their spouse. A simpler life, in my opinion — and clearly in yours — is a happier life. Okay, so someone is going through this, or knows someone who is. When is it too late? Can they contact you halfway through?

Joe: The best time to contact us is after you’ve made the decision to divorce, but before you’ve entered the process. That way, the gloves aren’t off. You haven’t each retained lawyers. You haven’t started throwing depositions and demands back and forth. Certainly we do have people who get on that path and then realize, “What the heck are we doing? Let’s get off this roller coaster and mediate.” But the decision to mediate really sets the tone.

Think about it this way: if you and I had plans and I showed up 15 minutes late and you said, “Hey, good to see you,” and I said, “I’m so sorry I’m late,” you’d say, “No problem, let’s get to the game.” As opposed to, “Joe, you wasted my time. You’re so disrespectful.” The tone just changed. And that tone carries. Whatever your first step is, that’s the tone you’re setting. If it starts on the right foot, the process will be amicable, you’ll come to an agreement. If you start on the wrong foot, you know the path.

So as soon as you think about divorce, think about mediation. And the beauty of mediation is that it’s non-binding until you make it so. If you get to the end and you’d feel better having a lawyer review the agreement just to make sure it’s fair, that’s totally fine. You’ve already made your agreements — you’re not walking into the lion’s den. And we have colleagues who are mediation-friendly attorneys, so when a client wants to have someone look it over, we can point them to the right people. A mediation-friendly attorney will support you and maybe say, “Here are a couple of suggestions, but overall this looks good.” That’s a very different experience from picking the wrong attorney who will flip everything over because it’s all billable hours with no end in sight.

Joel: So often in the dad’s groups I’ve seen online, everyone’s first advice is to lawyer up and go hard. And what you’re saying is that’s the first statement you make — and it sets a damaging tone.

Joe: That’s a tremendous mistake. Guys say, “I don’t want to get screwed.” Well, you’re going to get screwed if your attorney’s bills are $200,000. A litigated divorce is going to cost a hundred to $200,000. And if your wife has been working inside the home as a stay-at-home mom, where do you think that money is coming from? Not her paycheck. It’s coming from your savings account.

I’ll tell you a quick story. I was at a networking cocktail hour, standing talking to a colleague, and I overheard an attorney I knew — someone who was very much the billing type — say, loud enough for me to catch it: “I am so happy this case is going to trial. I just got the tuition bill for my youngest from Stanford and this is really going to help me.” I had to put my drink down. That is unfortunately the prevailing thought pattern in that system, because it’s set up to bill by the hour.

We do flat-fee mediation. That’s an important distinction. We have no interest in extending the process because we’re in the box with you. We’ve already told you the price. The more time I spend, the more it costs us. We have every incentive to get you finished and done well.

We get Christmas cards from former clients. I love that. They email us: “How are you guys doing? I’m getting remarried.” That’s what I want to hear. I want to hear from you socially, personally. I don’t want to be talking to you professionally a year from now.

Joel: So someone who’s convinced they need to learn more — equitablemediation.com?

Joe: Exactly. Go to the learning center — there are courses, articles, podcasts, videos. We have a YouTube channel. Our goal from the beginning was to put as much information out there as possible. When my mom was getting divorced, the only person who could answer her questions was a lawyer, and every question cost money by the hour. My mom was barely working at the time. So I decided I’m just going to put as much out there as I can. All-you-can-eat buffet — come on in, read, learn, take what you want. And then if we can help you, there’s a button to get a free consult.

If it’s just you and you’re early in the process, you’ll speak with my partner Cheryl. She’s our divorce coach and helps manage the emotional side of things. If you and your wife have both decided mediation is for you, then you’d book a meeting with me, because I have to work with both people at the same time — I’m neutral and can’t meet with just one side. We practice in California, Washington, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. The information on the site is useful nationwide, but if you live in one of those six states, we can help you directly.

Joel: Excellent. Equitablemediation.com, go to the learning center, and reach out through the website if you want to talk. Joe, thank you so much — not just for being here, but for what you do. This is a lot better than being taken to the cleaners by battling it out. You saw firsthand the effect a litigated divorce has on children. You had to live that. So what a responsible and peaceful way to go about it. Thank you very much.

Joe: Thank you, Joel. I appreciate it.