Podcast: Co-Parenting Through Conflict

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Navigating the Holiday Rush: A Mediator’s Perspective Co-parenting Beyond Conflict with Sol Kennedy

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Sol: Welcome back to Co-parenting Beyond Conflict. I’m your host, Sol Kennedy, founder of the Best Interest Co-parenting app. Today’s episode is a powerful reminder of what’s truly at stake when conflict takes over in divorce. My guest, Joe Dillon, is a divorce mediator with decades of experience. As a child of his own parents’ divorce, he only ever saw his father while in a courtroom. We talk about fear, money, control, and the quiet ways that kids carry adult conflict, along with practical tools for getting on the same page even in high-conflict situations. Let’s dive in.

Hi Joe, welcome. How are you doing today?

Joe: Thanks for having me, Sol. I appreciate it.

Sol: It’s so great to have you on the podcast. You describe yourself as a peacemaker — not just professionally, but personally. Before we get into mediation and the services you provide, I’d love to understand more about what that means to you. What is a peacemaker, and how did you get into this work?

Joe: I’ve been doing this 28 years now — negotiation and mediation. As you probably know, my parents litigated their divorce. It was really high conflict, with all the collateral damage that everybody says won’t happen to them. I sat in the back of the courtroom, never talked to my father again. But from that experience, what I took away is that people who get entrenched in their positions are truly convinced they’re right. There’s nothing you can do if you’re just going back at them with your opinion or trying to poke holes in theirs. That just goes back and forth and leads to more conflict. As a peacemaker, I’m always trying to see all sides. By asking questions and trying to understand what their view of reality is — whether it’s a conflict with a next-door neighbor, something political, or a homeowners association dispute — if we take a step back and really listen, we find we have a lot more in common than we don’t. We really are trying to achieve the same goal, just coming at it from different directions. That’s what it means to me — to be the person in the middle who says, “Let’s tick down a notch, hear everybody out, understand why they feel that way, and then move toward resolution.” That’s constantly my filter.

Sol: How much would you say your choice of profession was dictated by those early life experiences?

Joe: Nobody on the playground is thinking, “I want to be a divorce mediator.” You want to be a fireman, an astronaut, a cowboy. This is really a profession I was unwittingly led to. My background is negotiation and finance. I had a lot of corporate experience in that space. When I struck out on my own, this became a natural extension. And here we are nearly 18 years later, having formed Equitable Mediation in 2008. It really just feels like a natural extension of who I am, especially as a child of high-conflict divorce.

Sol: Something struck me — you mentioned that you were only seeing your father in court. Can you tell me more about how that evolved?

Joe: That’s a key challenge in any divorce where there’s such animosity between the adults. When children are involved, the adults can’t put aside their feelings toward the other person, and the kids become the collateral damage. I’m an only child. I lived 100% with my mom, and I think my dad felt like she was turning me against him. I was a teenager. As an adult you look back and say there’s enough blame to go around — maybe even myself. But that’s what happens. One person can’t set aside their feelings, and by definition they take it out on the kids. I remember my mom wanted him to come to my high school graduation, so she mailed him a ticket and he mailed it back. Then she sent him a graduation portrait of me — an 8×10 in a frame — and he dropped it off in a paper bag at our house. You’re thinking, what did I do? I’m just the kid. This is your son. He graduated at the top of his class. Wouldn’t you want that picture? She was trying to bridge the gap, but in those high-conflict situations, there’s really no getting through. The last time I saw him, they were arguing over who was going to pay for my college. My mom dressed me up in a suit jacket and tie, got me a haircut, and put me in the back of that courtroom so the judge could see me as a respectful young man. This was back in the 80s, before child support guidelines, when the divorce rate was really spiking. I sat there watching this battle ping-pong back and forth thinking, I wish I was hanging out with my girlfriend or playing in my band. He stomped off in the hallway of the courthouse. I was 15 or 16. I never saw him again. I think I got one letter telling me he was getting remarried, and then the next letter was from his estate notifying me that he had passed. That was 2019 — a 39-year gap with no communication in between. That’s a lesson in what not to do in a divorce.

Sol: I’ll be honest, I’m feeling a little emotional. That’s really intense for a child to experience.

Joe: I appreciate that. It took a lot of time and a lot of unresolved feelings to work through as an adult. Your kids didn’t want the divorce. They didn’t ask for it. They don’t fully understand what’s happening. They just want to love both of you and spend time with both of you. And it really does have a very lasting impact through the years that most adults don’t realize in the moment.

Sol: For any parents listening who are approaching or already in litigation, what would you like them to understand about how conflict shapes a child’s sense of relationship?

Joe: The one mistake I see parents make over and over is assuming their kids don’t know what’s going on. It doesn’t matter how old they are — they know. A 5-year-old isn’t going to say, “I see you’re both in conflict,” but they’re going to cry, wet the bed, suck their thumb, or react to the stress in some other way. Kids are sponges. Whatever you think you’re saying, hiding, or that they don’t hear — they absolutely do. Keep your conflict away from your kids. Do not involve them. Bite down on your tongue and maintain a united front as mom and dad. As soon as you leave that space, go to your car and pound the steering wheel if you need to. But in that moment when you are mom and dad, you are not plaintiff and defendant. You need to make sure your children feel safe, secure, and loved — so they never have to choose sides. Naturally, what winds up happening is that if a parent says to a little kid, “You don’t really want to spend time with your mom, do you?” — the kid is going to say no. Parents don’t even realize they’re doing it because their agenda is coloring their parenting. Asking leading questions like, “You have a lot more fun at mom’s house, don’t you?” and then, “Why don’t you just stay here this weekend?” — that kind of thing is very common in high-conflict situations. We need to really watch what we say in front of our kids and to our kids.

Sol: What I’m hearing is that when parents are holding a grudge, it can become more about seeking revenge than finding resolution. Why do you feel like parents sometimes confuse the two?

Joe: We’re all very busy and stretched thin. Think about showing up to a big morning presentation after your neighbor’s dog barked all night and you got zero sleep. Would you be at your best? Now think of that barking dog as the stress of your divorce, your job, single parenting — whatever it is. What can you do to address it so you’re your best self? In my barking dog example — get earplugs. What I’d say to parents is: recognize that this is happening. Recognize that you have a choice, that you don’t need to react to the other person, that you are in control of yourself. And if you need help with that, seek it out. We’re all so self-sufficient — it’s very much an American mindset. But talk to a therapist, talk to a counselor. They can teach you how to not react to your ex-spouse, how to manage your feelings so you can be your best parent. I hear this all the time: “We went to counseling and it didn’t work.” Okay — but what was the purpose? If it was to save the marriage and it didn’t, that’s one thing. But what if you went as individuals, or as a couple specifically for co-parenting support? Not to put the marriage back together, but to learn to communicate effectively and put your feelings aside. There are people who can help you with this, and you do have a choice in how you act and behave.

Sol: As we transition from being a married couple to co-parents, there’s still a relationship — it just has to shift. You’re advocating for support throughout that whole process. Why do it alone without a team?

Joe: Absolutely. We can read books and do certain things on our own. But to get real dynamic feedback from a counselor or therapist — someone who will challenge you and your way of thinking — the question you have to ask yourself is: is this behavior serving me? Is it making me a better parent or a worse parent? Conflict doesn’t make you a better parent. Do whatever you can to manage it. That’s why an app like yours is so important. We all have that friend whose name on the caller ID makes us think, “Oh, man.” Now imagine your phone blowing up with messages from someone you’re in conflict with. An app like yours can help manage that — keep it behind a velvet rope so it doesn’t spill over into your day. There’s nothing worse than sitting in a meeting, your phone buzzes, you flip it over, and there’s an all-caps nasty message. It’s hard to stay present when you’re facing communication like that.

Sol: In a way, when parents are embroiled in tit-for-tat communication, someone’s always playing offense and someone’s playing defense — and it’s not helping anyone move on or be a better parent.

Joe: Exactly. And there are tools out there that can help. Using them doesn’t make you a failure or less of a parent. In fact, it makes you a better parent. Presence is the gift you give to someone. Imagine being a single parent fighting wars on multiple fronts — how are you going to be fully present for your child? Having those gatekeepers helps. You know you’re not missing anything, and you get to choose when you engage with those messages. We’ve been trained by social media to respond instantly the moment something comes in — waiting for those three dots so we can type right back. What a waste of time. Just deal with it when you’re ready.

Sol: Do parents typically come to you early in the process, or do you see people coming post-judgment?

Joe: Almost all of our case work is divorce, not post-judgment. We focus on people who have made the decision to divorce together and want a more peaceful alternative to attorney-driven litigation — like what my parents went through. As a divorce mediator, we really need both people on the same page. We want to get them early in the process before things have gone off the rails. Maybe 5% of our clients have already engaged with or retained an attorney, but the majority come to us through our website through private mediation — not court-ordered. When it comes to post-judgment cases, we’ll only work with former clients. People who come through the courts at that stage have usually already tried litigation, and the judge has ordered them to try mediation as a condition of being heard. Invariably, over the years, we’d get people writing in asking us to just write a letter saying they reached out — so they could go back to court without actually trying. I’m not spending time on that. The former clients who do come back are genuinely trying to resolve something new, like figuring out college support for a kid who’s now heading to school in Europe. That I can work with. But if people want to fight, they’re going to fight. No matter how much you tell them they could save hundreds of thousands of dollars, finish in months instead of years, and not destroy their family — if they’re blinded by rage, there’s no talking them off the ledge.

Sol: Do you ever have situations where one spouse wants mediation and the other needs more convincing?

Joe: About half the people who inquire have a reluctant spouse, and we can’t mediate because it has to be voluntary. We position ourselves as neutral third parties and are very clear from the start: we are not in the business of convincing your spouse to get a divorce or to mediate. We’ll share the benefits of mediation and answer any questions about why it might be preferable to litigation, and then it’s their choice. More often than not, the reluctant party feels like they’d be at a disadvantage — and that’s unfortunate, because as a mediator, even though I’m neutral, I advocate for both sides. Many times where there’s a power imbalance or a lack of financial knowledge on one side, that person wants to retain an attorney because it makes them feel protected. And that’s fine — you can absolutely mediate with us and then have an attorney review your agreement afterward. They’ll tell you whether it’s fair or whether you should go back and ask for more. But it’s not our job to convince anyone. Probably half the people who genuinely want to mediate can’t because their spouse is unwilling.

Sol: You mentioned the desire for protection as a potential roadblock. What other kinds of reluctance do you encounter?

Joe: Mostly the other piece is one person not believing the marriage is over. They want to keep working on it. The sad reality is it takes two people to stay married but only one to file for divorce. If you’re that reluctant spouse and you’ve accepted there’s nothing you can do to change your partner’s mind, your choice becomes how you get this divorce — do you pull the pin on a grenade, or do you mediate and try to preserve your family, your wealth, and your dignity? When we encounter those situations, someone will sometimes walk into what should be a mediation initial meeting and essentially have a counseling session. I have to redirect that because I’m woefully underqualified as a mental health professional. When someone says, “We’ve had four marriage counselors already — what’s a fifth one going to do differently?” that person is drowning, holding on to a life raft and praying for one last chance. At its core, that’s really the fear of the unknown. Fear of what comes next.

Sol: I can really relate to that. Having been married and approaching divorce, all the fears that come up — will I survive this? — I can absolutely relate to that reluctance.

Joe: That’s part of why we try to allay whatever fears we can. Getting divorced is financially daunting — the same income now has to stretch across two households, and most of our clients can barely manage one. Part of our process is checking the financial reality of settlements to make sure both parties can at least be okay — not that one person is fine and the other is destitute. There’s also the loss of support. For a lot of people, their spouse is their entire world, and they may not have a strong support system around them. What happens if I get sick? Who takes care of me? Any one of those concerns is daunting on its own. Now throw a divorce on top and tell someone they need to resolve all of them at the same time. We try to help people transition through this. My partner Cheryl — who is also my wife — is a divorce coach. I like to think I’m the most important person in the room because I did the mediation, but make no mistake: it’s emotions that drive divorce. Cheryl is really the most important person in the room. She helps clients manage the emotional piece, and when you can manage that and put on a clear head, you can start to say, “Okay, I’m going to be short $1,000 a month — what can I do about that? How do I build my career, earn extra income, reduce expenses?” When you gain mental clarity, you gain tactical clarity. Divorce is a deeply emotional issue, and that’s what clouds people’s judgment and their ability to move forward.

Sol: My listeners won’t be surprised to know how little I think of the litigation and family court system. How does mediation create the safety that litigation doesn’t?

Joe: Attorneys play a very valuable role in some cases. I’ve run into situations involving dissipation of assets, failure to file tax returns for ten years, or undisclosed families in other countries. Those are not mediation-friendly cases, and there needs to be a system in place for them. But the vast majority can be handled in mediation. It really boils down to one thing: fear. If you’ve ever called a home security company and they put you on hold, they start telling you that every 3.2 seconds someone’s home is broken into — that’s a scare tactic. And that’s exactly what the legal system does. “You don’t want to get screwed, do you? We’ll get you every penny.” Of course you believe someone who went to school for 17 years. Mediation is the opposite. We have a saying: do the discovery before the deciding. We don’t decide anything upfront — we gather information, because numbers don’t lie. I have an MBA in finance. I’m not a lawyer, but I’m a rare bird as a mediator because of that background. A lot of the complex cases we get — high-net-worth, business owners, complex stock options — come to us because I can say, “Here’s the reality. Your lawyer is going to say they’ll get you everything, but one party is not walking away with 100% of the assets. It’s just not happening.” What mediation does is lay everything out: here’s what you have, here’s what you both need — a place to live, a car, groceries, a path to retirement — now how do we divide this fairly? That takes the temperature down. If you stayed married, you’d share your retirement with your spouse. So those conversations become, “What’s fair?” And that element — what’s fair — is really what it boils down to.

Sol: With your finance background, how do you see money playing a role in these situations? You talk about it as a symbolic fight.

Joe: Money is power, and people want to own power. We see that in our political and corporate systems, and it plays out the same way in divorce. Someone who’s been at the office, working the hours, earning the salary, feels like “this is mine.” They identify themselves through it. But consider this: many women today are educated, intelligent, college-graduated — women who perhaps gave up their careers to be the primary caregiver in the home. Had they stayed in the workforce, they may very well have reached the same professional position as their spouse. By being that primary caregiver, they gave up that power and are now in a very vulnerable position. The message we try to deliver is that you built a partnership. One of you worked outside the home and earned resources; one of you worked inside the home and managed them. Both roles are equally important. That’s how we level the playing field and help both parties feel they have a real say in how the money gets allocated — because they did play a valuable role.

Sol: That’s a very empowering message. Facing divorce can feel incredibly disempowering, so hearing that you’ll be okay and that this is a priority in the room — I imagine that goes a long way toward cooling the temperature.

Joe: It certainly does.

Sol: Let’s say a listener is considering mediation. What should they be looking for in a good mediator?

Joe: First and foremost: experience in the issue you’re actually facing. For example, if your spouse has a significant behavioral or mental health issue, I’m not your mediator. I would tell you directly — I’m glad you want to mediate, but you’d be better served by someone with a mental health background. Match the professional’s skill and training to what you need. The other thing is that experience genuinely matters. As the issues get bigger and the conflict gets hotter, you need someone with years and years of practice. If you’re in a high-conflict or post-judgment situation, find out whether they’ve done court-ordered mediation training and whether they understand the relevant state-specific processes — because a mediator can actually negatively impact your ability to move through the courts if they don’t. And ask about their case resolution rate. People sometimes think, “Well, they tried — they were neutral, they tried.” But a good mediator gets people who are at loggerheads to reach agreement — that’s the job. Average mediation resolution rates are around 70%. I’ve had clients reach out to us who said, “We started with another mediator, had six sessions, and got nowhere.” First, I apologize on behalf of the mediation community. Second, let’s get you through this. If you’re talking to me for six or twelve months, we’ve got a bigger problem. You want to spend two or three months with a mediator, move through the issues, and move forward. Our case resolution rate is 98%. Over the years, we’ve only lost five cases — one involved ten years of unfiled taxes, another involved an undisclosed family in another country. There was no getting out of those.

Sol: I can just hear listeners saying, “That sounds wonderful, but my ex is a narcissist.” Do those cases work in mediation? Is there a technique for that?

Joe: Absolutely — and I’d tell your listeners to grab a pad and pen, because this technique works in the broadest social sense, not just with clinical narcissists. A narcissist is self-centered. They like to hear themselves talk, be right, and get their way. The way to move through conversations with them is to frame everything as a perceived benefit to them. Phrases like, “That’s a really good point,” or “I could see why you’d be upset about that — that makes perfect sense, let’s talk about it.” You’re not trying to trick anyone. You’re acknowledging and validating. You’re saying, I’m putting myself in your position, and I can see how you’d feel that way. Making that person feel right, feel special — that’s how you move them. That works time and time again. You get someone who says, “I’m paying too much in child support.” Your response: “You’re right, you do work long hours. I don’t know how you deal with that boss or that travel schedule. You’re a rock star.” If that gets you the child support you need, keep the words flowing. I call this “detached engagement.” You’re engaged in the conversation, but you’re floating above it as a neutral observer watching it unfold. It’s not you saying those things — it’s your avatar. So you don’t have to feel conflicted about giving someone a compliment. You’re just trying to get resolution — shoes for your kid, groceries on the table, whatever it is. And my favorite question of all, genuinely useful for anyone: “Help me understand.” It doesn’t say “why,” which can feel inflammatory. It gets the other person talking. You learn what their actual positions are, start filing it away, and build your path around it. Then, as things come out, you acknowledge and validate: “You’re right, these formulas are ridiculous — who do these government people think they are with their child support guidelines? They don’t know our family. That’s exactly why you and I should mediate our own amount. We should decide what’s best for our family.” You jump on their bandwagon and then gently steer it toward mediation: “You’re right — we should control this. I don’t want anybody telling us what to do.” You’re getting what you want by acknowledging what the other person is upset about.

Sol: That’s such good advice for any relationship. It doesn’t require a narcissist in the equation. As we form new relationships in our lives, leading with understanding rather than telling people what we want is a powerful approach.

Joe: Absolutely. Rather than telling people what we want, ask them what they want. In a good relationship, they’ll ask you back. If it’s one-sided, that’s a fire hose — I don’t want to get sprayed with a fire hose of information. I want someone to say, “I’ve been talking so much — how was your day?” In co-parenting situations, you’ll often have one person consistently on the offense. Their goal is to tire the other person out until they succumb. But that person eventually snaps back with a vengeance, and then you’re really off to the races. It’s better to get it out up front — get that acknowledging, validating dialogue going and make sure it’s at least two-sided. With enough practice, even a difficult communicator can be guided toward stating objectives rather than just attacking. There are great books out there for this. Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss is excellent. Getting to Yes is the classic. Read those books and they’ll change the way you view the world and communication — whether you’re going through a divorce, dealing with a co-worker, or negotiating with a neighbor.

Sol: Joe, before we close — for a parent listening right now who’s feeling scared and overwhelmed, what do they most need to hear?

Joe: That it will be okay. This too shall pass. In the moment it feels like the world is collapsing in on you. But kids grow up. They are no longer minors. And it has been my experience, 100% of the time, that when they become adults, if you were truly the one who supported them, was there for them, and showed them unconditional love — they’re going to figure that out. They might not get it at 18 or 19, but by the time they’re 25, 30, or 35, they’ll know who was there. Just keep doing the right things, over and over and over. As the relationship evolves and your kids grow into adults, they’ll know it was you.

Sol: Joe, thanks so much for being on today and sharing your insights. It’s all been incredibly helpful. For listeners interested in connecting with you and learning more about your work, how can they reach out?

Joe: The best place is our website — Equitable Mediation at equitablemediation.com. We have a full learning center with articles, videos, courses, and checklists, and a lot of it is free. We want people to feel educated and have quality resources. We practice in six states, so check out everything in the learning center. We have great articles on co-parenting, how to tell your kids about the divorce, developing parenting plans, child support — all the things that can help people feel informed and a little more at peace as they go through this process, whether pre- or post-judgment. Equitablemediation.com is the best place to start.

Sol: Wonderful. We’ll put those links in the show notes. Again, thanks so much, Joe. Have a great day.

Joe: Thanks — you too.