Liv Stories Podcast: Divorce Done Differently with Joe Dillon

Introduction

Liv Lewis: Hey, fam. Welcome to Liv Stories, the podcast where real women get real about love, loss, liberation, and everything in between. I’m your host, Liv Lewis. If you are new here, welcome. And if you’ve been riding with us for season 1 and into season 2, you already know this is a sacred and safe space for us, for you.

Today we are diving into a topic that doesn’t get nearly enough honest airtime: divorce done differently. My guest is not your average expert. Joe Dillon is a pioneer in divorce mediation. For over 17 years, he’s been helping couples end their marriages with dignity, clarity, and a whole lot less drama. I kind of want to get into the drama part, but we’ll get into that in a bit.

He is the co-founder of Equitable Mediation Services, holds an MBA in finance, and has trained at Harvard, MIT, and Northwestern. Just a little humble brag since we’re giving bios. He started doing virtual mediation way before Zoom or Teams or Google Meets was a thing. Beyond his accolades, Joe also is a child of divorce. He’s been there and that mix of personal experience and professional expertise shows up in the way he supports his clients, couples, and families.

Joe, welcome to Liv Stories. How are you?

Joe Dillon: I’m doing great. Thanks so much for having me. And that guy, boy, he sounds fantastic. I can’t wait. I mean, who is he? Who is he? Who’s that guy?

Liv: I love that. Even as I was prepping for our conversation and putting myself in the shoes of someone who’s listening, I want to start simple and really just start with a grounding because divorce is a whole language most of us never learn. It’s not like you’re getting married and saying, “Oh yeah, I’m planning to get divorced.” Right? So at the very basic level, Joe, what is mediation exactly?

What is Mediation?

Joe: Great question. Mediation is a process that couples can use to get divorced. It’s led by a neutral third-party mediator. They don’t represent either party like a lawyer would represent one side. They advocate for both parties. They help create options, ask questions, guide the proceedings, and strategically guide couples through all the conversations and to all the agreements they need to get a divorce. A good mediator is going to draft all that up into a comprehensive document. And then some, depending on their background, may perform other services be they financial in nature, legal in nature.

So it really helps client couples go through the whole divorce process without involving lawyers. Of course, if they so choose, they can retain attorneys, but in my experience, it’s extremely rare that our client couples do that. They’re most interested in mediating because they want to avoid that acrimonious litigious knockdown dragout battle that we are all so unfortunately familiar with. So that’s probably the best way to describe it.

Liv: That’s so helpful. I think it’s really interesting even as you’re talking, how can you remain neutral, Joe, if you’re seeing something ain’t right? How are you doing that?

Balancing Neutrality with Fairness

Joe: Yeah, it’s funny. I have a strong sense of justice growing up as an only child of a single mother. I’m sure your viewers here can relate to this. Being a single mother is a really huge burden. I kind of bring that in and I try to say to myself, look, I want to make sure that I level this playing field as much as I can because I don’t want that situation where one party is like, yeah, we can go on vacation, sure, I can buy you those birthday gifts, yeah, we can live in this great house. And the other person is living over the bakery in downtown Hackensack and just poor and can’t make the birthday presents and do all that stuff.

So I bring that in and I explain to people, I say look, it doesn’t do you any good, especially when kids are involved, if you’ve got this uneven settlement. And I got to tell you, I will tell you the truth, if that settlement goes through and it’s uneven, two bad things happen. One, that’s my name on it. So I want to make sure that despite being neutral, it’s fair and balanced. But I also know, and this is part of what I can use to explain why I’m perhaps bringing something up. I say, “Hey, hey, you two, listen. Eventually, one of you is going to sit there late at night with their cup of tea, their book, or whatever, and thinking this ain’t a good deal. I don’t like this.” And then you’re going to have blown mediation. That person’s going to lawyer up, and you’re going to be right off to the races. So why don’t we get a deal that’s fair and balanced for both of you here? And let’s avoid all that. I think that message really resonates.

Liv: I love that. That’s really helpful to understand. So, novice here went through the mediation process myself, but I think I was emotional and may have blocked a lot of what happened. I definitely remember I had a north star that I did not want a contentious divorce. But what happens? What is the difference between mediation and I’ve heard this word thrown around, arbitration. What is the difference?

Mediation vs. Arbitration

Joe: In mediation, the powers belong to the parties. So I’m the mediator. Never going to tell you what to do. Not going to decide for you. I’m going to bring you a host of options. We’re going to explore those options, pros and cons. We’re going to test them. We’re going to do all kinds of things to figure out what’s best in your unique situation. And then out on the plate goes these one, two, three choices and then the couple will decide what they want.

Arbitration, on the other hand, the quote unquote neutral third party is acting kind of as a quasi judge. They’re sitting there, they’re listening, and they’re going to make a decision. So they are in effect deciding for the client couple. Now, in mediation, I’m a native New Yorker, Irish Italian, so really direct kind of guy and I don’t want anybody to tell me what to do. I’m going to tell me what to do. Whereas in an arbitration situation, someone’s going to deal you a hand and guess what? You might not like it, but too bad. You chose that path. Mediation, you choose your own path.

And we find in mediation when you think about it, if you ask somebody like if somebody did something, they made a choice and it didn’t turn out as planned. What’s the first thing you’re going to say to them? Well, you did that. You chose that. So we find in mediation client couples are a lot more likely to adhere to the agreements they made than in other types of divorce processes because they have to look in the mirror and say, “Well, this is what I chose. This is my choice, so I’m going to stick with it.” And so for that reason also I think mediation really is very powerful and really works far better than arbitration. At least in my experience, of course there can always be clients that are difficult and won’t negotiate and won’t cooperate and then you need to kind of escalate into those other processes.

Signs of a Good Mediator

Liv: Very helpful. You brought up being a New Yorker. I already have a perception in my mind, but let’s talk vibes and choosing the right kind of individual that’s going to be very neutral. So what would you say are signs that you have a good mediator?

Joe: Yeah, it’s a lot of personal preference. In mediation, there’s different styles of mediation. Just not to bend everybody’s brain, keep them real easy. You’ve got what we call facilitative. When you think of facilitative, anybody who’s been to counseling or therapy, that’s a more facilitative approach. Like how does that make you feel, Liv? What are you thinking right now? Getting the clients to talk and kind of wander through the process.

Then you have other folks more like me who are more directive that say, “Okay, here’s what I need from you. Here’s what we’re going to talk about and here are the options we’re going to create. Here they are. Pros, cons, pros, cons, let’s decide.” Both styles have a benefit. Now so first thing is finding somebody comfortable.

The other thing that I think is really important here is unlike lawyers who have to pass the bar and have to take exams and do all that stuff, you don’t have to do that to be a mediator. You just need to take a 40-hour mediation course. So let’s say, and this is a true story and I mean this with no disrespect, there was a gentleman who was in my training class however long ago, and he was an auto mechanic, and he thought, hey, I think I can make good money doing divorce mediation. He didn’t have a finance background, a negotiation background. No disrespect to him, I’m sure he was a smart guy. He was there in the class. He deserves to be. But then you have to ask yourself, what skills does this person have? What training?

So when you’re talking to a mediator, ask them what professional affiliations do they have? Do they teach? Do they do continuing education? The law is constantly changing like all over the place. Do they have a process? The other thing that can sometimes happen when you think about mediators, if you don’t have a process, it can go on and on because nobody’s deciding. These things can drag on. And so someone who’s more directive like me, and we’ll talk a little bit about this, we offer clients a flat fee. So it’s not like hourly billing, cha-ching cha-ching cha-ching. But we also have what we call a mediation roadmap, which says by this date you will do this, by this date you will do this, by this date you will do this. And it keeps people on track.

So you want to have the experience, the education, the affiliations, and the process. I really think those are the big things because you don’t want to be sitting there for years. If you decided to end your marriage, I mean, of course, I don’t want to rush you through, but you’ve told me you want to get away from this person. Let’s help you do that so you can start healing and you can start picking up the pieces, which when all this stuff crashes down on you after you’re done. So I think those are the big things that I’d really be looking at.

Preparing for Mediation

Liv: And are there things, so parties are friendly-ish, friendly adjacent—and I’m totally stealing that. I’ll give you credit the first three times after it’s mine. I’m sorry, Liv.

Joe: Thank you, thank you.

Liv: So what should people prepare for? What am I thinking about before this first meeting or before even talking to you?

Joe: That’s a great question because a lot of people, if you go online and you start doing searches planning for divorce and preparing for divorce, you get all that get your tax returns and your pay stubs and it’s all tactical stuff. But before we jumped on, I was paying you a compliment about how great your website is, and I’m like, the real deal about this is am I centered emotionally? Am I ready to engage in this process? Can I handle this? And then really, am I willing to do two things? Here are the two things I want listeners to remember.

One, am I willing to engage in a good faith negotiation? I know we all say, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure, whatever.” But you can’t be hiding stuff and you can’t be playing games and trying to pull one over. Like, that’s not cool. That’s not going to work. So, good faith negotiation.

And two, are you willing to be actively engaged in the process? All right, so here’s the thing. When you hire a lawyer, a lawyer has a big office and a staff and water bottles with their names on it. And guess who’s paying for that? You are. So when you say, “Well, I don’t feel like giving you the copies of my bank statements or blah blah,” they go, “No problem, just give us our username and password and we’ll log in on your behalf and we’ll get all those documents for you at $750 an hour.” Sure, they’re more than happy to do the work.

But if I said to you as the mediator, here’s a list of a hundred things, sorry, that I need from you. Go do it. It’s free. You can go log on and get your tax return, your pay stub, W-2. So I think you really have to be ready for it emotionally. Am I going to be actively involved? Am I going to engage in a good faith negotiation? Without those things, it doesn’t matter. If you’re going to try to hide assets or you’re going to try to power imbalance and stiff arm your spouse or you’re going to throw your hands up and dig your heels in and say, “I’m not giving you any of that,” mediation’s just not going to work. So I say to you, thanks, but you might want to get a lawyer. Might want to, sadly.

Liv: So I love that. So two things, good faith negotiation and being actively engaged. What does that look like tactically though? Give me some examples.

Active Engagement in Practice

Joe: Perfect. So for example, what you’ll learn about me, my background is finance and negotiation. So we have a very clear process that we take couples through and part of that process are proprietary forms and worksheets that we’ve developed over the years that gather in steps. Because it’s kind of like doing your taxes. When you own a business, and you and I understand this, where you’re like, man, I haven’t done my books in 12 months. This is going to suck. This is going to take forever. Versus you do it every month and then at tax time it’s like, yeah, no problem. I just need an hour or two to pull it all together.

So we feed you information as to what we need, what we want you to do, and we give you deadlines for that. So one good example is here’s a form, I want you to fill it out. I want it to be complete and accurate. I would like you to get it to me in a week. So that’s the stuff whereas people sometimes, especially we find that one of the statistics you hear a lot is there’s a law firm in the UK that does a study and they said it takes the average person two years and one month to decide from I think I want to get a divorce to yep I’m calling a mediator calling a lawyer, more than two years.

So usually, and I’m going to say guys, sorry out there, but usually the women are more in touch with this. 70% of divorces are filed by women. Even though the guys might have some inkling of what’s going on out there, usually they’re not in touch as much with this. And so our experience shows us that the women are driving the process. So the guys who may also be the kind of, going to fold my arms. I’m not going to do a thing. I’m going to just sit here and not fill the form. It’s like, well, guess what? This is going to turn ugly if you don’t at least engage.

So those are the kinds of things we’re talking about. You can be pissed about the divorce and you could not want it and be reluctant. That’s fine. But engage with me because if you don’t, the alternative is going to be a lot worse for whoever is on the other end. So that’s a good example of it.

Divorce Statistics and Demographics

Liv: I may segue and tangent a bit because you said two things I kind of want to double click on. The 70% I know it’s UK stats that women are the ones typically filing. I think I saw this on social media. I know it’s not like proprietary research, but I believe the reason why women are the ones filing is because the man has already left the marriage. They’ve already abandoned it in a sense. I’ve seen that they’ve checked out and the woman is kind of like, well, if I’m dealing with an empty shell, I might as well actually make this something and get myself some freedom and be liberated.

I think the other thing is as I think about just black and brown women. Are you seeing more of them, I know that just statistically speaking, black women are back in the workforce. They’re commanding more in salaries. They are in fact financially more equipped and making money. And we’re also seeing a rise in men staying home. But as we think about black women, are there stats that show and what stats are there that kind of go into mediation? Do you see any of that?

Joe: Yeah. So it’s funny you bring that up because that is something that is kind of a disconnect with mediation. So again, statistics are a little hard to come by because they’re done by research universities and then folks like me are trying to cross reference that with census data and trying to do the best we can to wrap our brains around it. But let’s just play the estimate game. I’ll just take it on the high side just because, so I don’t give you ranges.

You figure black and brown couples represent about 47% of the divorces in the United States, yet they only represent 31% of the population. So they divorce at a higher rate. Now, when you talked about black women, black women divorce, I think it’s 24.5, that half a woman and of course we got like the 2.2 kids. We’ll call it 25. 45 out of a thousand black women experience divorce, which is higher than 13% of white women out of a thousand experience divorce. So you’re seeing in the black and brown population is divorcing at a much higher rate, women are divorcing at a much higher clip than white women.

And even as the national average, you wrap your brain around that that nearly half of the divorces in the US, now this is 2022 stats, but that’s quite recent, nearly half of the black and brown couples are responsible for the divorce rate in the US. And yet, meanwhile, as a mediator, and I was sharing a little bit of this with you before we jumped on, I would say 5% of our client couples are black or brown.

And so that is as a numbers guy that’s a real disconnect to me for a couple of reasons. One, I think there’s a lack of knowledge about mediation. Like people just think I got to lawyer up. And another thing which, I’m jumping in here. I’m a truth teller. And this is we’re having a conversation. I’m with you. It’s like, historically guys are like not wanting to take the reins here. They want somebody to take care of this. If you want a divorce, then you do it. And so mediation process doesn’t really lend itself to that personality, that person.

Now the guys we get, the guys who call us and who are driving the divorce, you know exactly who they are. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, CFOs, they’re those guys. They’re the let’s go people. But as a general rule, like in the general population, again, there’s this weird disconnect between black and brown couples versus who divorce versus who mediate. And I think a lot of it is education about mediation as an option and the willingness of, and I’ll just being polite, the willingness of both parties to engage. Because you have to both be willing to engage.

So I think you fit a great space in saying listen folks, this is an option. You don’t have to blow this thing up and we can move on and come to an agreement without having to tear this whole thing down.

Liv: You’re spot on and I can only speak as a party of one even though I have friends who also gone through the process. I think what made me want to seek alternative solutions is because I saw my friends go through the divorce process with lawyers and it got so crazy expensive and so contentious. Like some of them have been in this process for five to six years and it’s like I wanted to be done. And I also think part two was at the time I was in therapy and my therapist was a Jewish woman and she was the one that actually said, well, have you thought about mediation? And I was like what’s that?

So I think there’s a lack of awareness of there’s different options to explore. And you can still have and fight for what you believe you deserve. And we’ll talk about the law in a second, but I think that’s interesting. And I think that’s one of the reasons why Lived exists is because I want to make sure our listeners, everyone, has information to make the right best decision for them.

Joe: Exactly.

What Lawyers Don’t Want You to Know

Liv: I said tangent. Now we’re back. You talked about the lawyers and them doing it for you. What do you think lawyers want you to know or not know actually about divorce? If you hit on one of them, which was like, well, I’m just going to bill you till the sun comes down and up again and until the world ends. What are things, I’m pissed I have to pay for your water bottle and the name of the water bottle, but what are the things that you think lawyers don’t want regular consumers to know?

Joe: Man, there is one thing far and away. This is probably like it’s probably the easiest question I’ll get all day. Okay, I swear it sounds like the most complicated, and that’s for very good reason. The number one thing I think that lawyers don’t want client couples to know is that they, the client couple, is empowered to make the choices that are in their mutual best interest. The law is not as cut and dry as you think.

All right. So I am a CSI junkie. I’m a crime show guy. And like in 48 minutes, because we got the commercials, but if you’re watching on Netflix, you’re flipping through, I get to watch a crime get committed, the scene gets processed, the person’s in handcuffs, and I’m out. You’re done. You’re happy. Less than an hour. This is awesome. Justice.

So I want to, this is a little bit of a news flash to people and I think they’re like, “What?” And I’m like, “So when you watch those kinds of shows, you watch those shows on TV, think I think you could walk up to any rational person and say, “Hey, can I ask you a question? Is it okay to shoot somebody?” They’d be like, “What’s wrong?” No, of course not. Very cut and dry. So if that person winds up in a courtroom and they go, “Yeah, your honor. I shot that guy. Yeah, I did it on purpose just because.” It’s pretty easy for that judge to make that decision. So that’s a court of law.

Now you come into the family court system and I’m not a lawyer, but this is kind of how it’s explained to me by a lawyer friend. She said, “Look, Joe, you go into a court for divorce, it’s a court of equity.” What does that mean? Equity. Fair and equitable. Well, that’s the name of our company, Equitable mediation, because equitable means whatever the parties think is fair. Whatever you want. And so when you get into a court, people are often surprised that the judge might rule against you because you look like somebody who stole their parking space out in the lot this morning or hey, you remind me of some guy who once cut in front of me at the vending machine in the lobby or whatever. It’s not as cut and dry.

So lawyers are saying, well, I’m going to get you the best deal, the best deal. Well, guess what? You can negotiate that yourself. And that’s what mediation helps you do. There’s no magic rule book. Yeah, there are guidelines. There are statutes. You can go online, knock yourself out, hit up your favorite AI chatbot or whatever and tell me what the law says. But I can tell you from experience, I’ve seen thousands of these couples. And I can tell you that it’s a very rare day when someone goes, “Okay, Joe, well, just tell us what the child support guideline is, and we’ll accept it exactly as is.” Because they want to empower, or they want to negotiate. And that’s what I think couples don’t realize is that the settlement is in their hands.

So you can have a lawyer review it afterwards. I totally support that. Something’s right. But you are empowered. I mean that far and away is the answer to that question.

Liv: No doubt. I love that. I think easy but surprising easy.

Understanding the Law

You bring up the law. I want to unpack that a little bit because I think people forget that everything is based on the state. So can you talk about the importance of the law and what people don’t know and what they should know about how to think about the law in their state?

Joe: So here’s the thing. We, as you said, we practice in six different states. So originally east coast, so New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, then we moved to Chicago for a while, so we did Illinois. Now we’re in California, so we do California, Washington State. And we’ve chosen these states because they’re mediation friendly. So they’re places that we enjoy practicing.

But we in mediation say we mediate in the shadow of the law. So what does that mean? It says, well, we know the law exists. We have to acknowledge that even though I’m not a lawyer and I’m not going to give you legal advice or tell you what a judge is going to tell you you’re entitled to, but we have to acknowledge that divorce is a state level issue.

And I will never forget way back in the very early part of my career. This is really when the internet was just kind of becoming a thing. Somebody came into a session. This was a client in New Jersey. And they came into a session with a piece of paper that they had printed out. And they were like, “Joe, I would like to use these child support guidelines.” And they were from Utah from 1983. And I said, “Well, let’s talk about where we’re currently living.” We’re currently sitting in Bridgewater, New Jersey, and so we have to recognize that we’re getting divorced in New Jersey and we need to use the New Jersey guidelines. They were very upset by this because I guess whatever they liked about Utah, I have no idea how to practice in Utah. But that’s the whole idea. We have to acknowledge that yes, we have flexibility within the mediation space, but we also have to acknowledge that there’s this overarching law that sits above us and we have to kind of play within the rules.

Now, granted, as I like to say, think about this. As a little kid, when you’re playing, maybe your mom sets you down in the yard and she says, “You stay there. Don’t you go anywhere.” And she’s watching you out the kitchen window. And you just stay in your little square because I got my truck or my doll or whatever I’m doing out here doing important work. Versus now you go to a park and the entire park is your playground. Mediation is kind of like the park where it’s like we got a lot of space to run but there is a fence around this park. There is a defined area. And so you explain to people like look, let’s get creative. Let’s think about it and let’s see how that balances against the law of the state for example we’re in.

But you do have a lot of flexibility, but you do have to acknowledge that I can’t take all the assets and stick you with all the debts, for example, because that’s not going to fly.

Liv: No, I think that’s such a good, I love that concept or at least your analogy of park playground.

Common Mistakes in Divorce

I want to talk about what not to do. Don’t print laws from Utah when living in Jersey. Got that note. Bad idea. Because divorce already has enough land mines. Let’s help our listeners avoid a few. What would you say are common mistakes people make during the divorce or mediation or separation process?

Joe: I’d say number one is hiding things, hiding assets.

Liv: I knew you were going to say that, man.

Joe: I tell you, let me just tell your listeners, there’s one thing you never want to say to a mediator. You ready? Write this down. Put it on a post-it note on your mirror in the bathroom so you read it every morning when you get up. You never want to say, “Why do you need a copy of that?” That’s it. I’m out. As the mediator, I’m done. I’m like, “Well, guess what? I now officially know I have a problem.” Because I’m never going to ask for something that I don’t absolutely need. I’m not here to just dig through your finances and go, “Yeah, look what they bought at Target. Oh my god.” That’s not my job. My job is to help. And so one of the mistakes is not engaging in that full disclosure. It’s like if I ask you for it, I need it. There is a reason. There is a process. If you don’t like the process, write your congressperson, get them to change how it works. Feel free. I can’t help you with that. So that’s the big thing.

Other mistakes people will make is going in, as we just talked about, thinking that they’re entitled to something that the law says I’m entitled to x amount of dollars a month in blank. You’re entitled to have a conversation. You’re entitled to negotiate. But at the end of the day, if you don’t agree in mediation, a judge is going to say what it is you’re getting, not what you’re entitled to. It’s like this is what I, as the judge, have decided. And let me just share a little bit about judges. Judges are some of the nicest people in the world. They’re caring. They’re kind. I mean, the crap that they listen to all day, God bless them. But at the end of the day, man, they got big fish to fry. They don’t want to listen to your nonsense about your stupid toaster or staple gun or whatever. They’re trying to move you on and they’re just let’s go. And they’re going to make a ruling and you’re going to be like, “Wait, what?” And it’s like, “Yep, goodbye.” Gavel’s down. Next. So I think people, that’s kind of a mistake too. They think that they’re entitled to something that there’s some guarantee. So that’s a mistake going into the process thinking that.

And then the other thing I’d say probably the third of my bugaboos if you will is not recognizing that you have to give something in order to get something. It’s called negotiation for a reason. You can’t just go in. It’s not like you’re a 5-year-old where you’re going to hold your breath until mom says sure we can go to the movies and you can have a candy and we can go here. You got to recognize that if I’m going to ask you to do blank, then I need to have something equally big to hand over to you. I can’t just keep asking, asking, asking because as we talked about before, one of two things will happen. One, right there in mediation, I’m going to snap and then I’m going to just lose my mind. And then that’s when I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to turn the volume down on my headphones.” Or that person’s going to go, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.” And then they’re going to go away and their friends are going to go, “What did you do? What?” And they’re going to get the lawyer and off you go.

So those I think those are the three big ones. And you notice it’s all about fair. It’s all about engagement. It’s all about being willing to be a part of the process. You really got to dig deep. And if you’re not, that’s totally okay. I can tell you from experience. We have client couples who come on. They’ll come and have an initial meeting with me and I’ll just look at them and say, “You know what? I’m so sorry to be the one to tell you, but I hate to waste your time and money. You’re not a good fit for mediation. Maybe if you want to try mediation with a different mediator, but I will tell you right now, I’ve seen a lot of stuff and this doesn’t fit into the mediation box.” And so that’s the kind of stuff that you want to just be upfront with yourself when you’re thinking about mediation. Can I really do this?

Liv: I think I’m going to add a fourth to your bugaboos is people are not honest with themselves. And that’s why I think there’s some therapy that needs to happen as you’re unpacking because I know there are different instances, but when we think about just the uncoupling or the separation, both parties have things. I think some people don’t want to admit their faults or are deluded about what their things are that helped get them to a space of needing to separate and divorce.

When Mediation Isn’t Right

But this is a great segue into, you know, when is mediation not a good idea? You talk about entitlement, you talk about fair and equitable. You talked about engagement, active engagement, you talked about full disclosure, but as you’re talking to in your discovery session, what are you listening for to ensure that mediation is the right step for them?

Joe: You’re always looking for power imbalances. Because one of the things that happens is that you get client couples and all of us who are married, whether you realize it or not, you take on a role. And so I’ll give you a funny example, true story in my house. I’m a finance guy so I paid the bills. I just, my wife and I, we shared joint everything. There’s no issue here. One day my wife is in New York City at a conference and she comes home, this is I think it’s like 2016, she comes home and she was like really upset and I’m like, “What’s the matter?” She’s like, “Do you know I got to the bank machine, the ATM, and I didn’t know how to use my ATM card because you always go to the bank, put the money in the sock drawer. I go in and I say, ‘Hi,’ I took 20 bucks and that was it.” And I was like, “Holy.” I’m like, “Wow.” And she was really upset because by the way, my wife is an intelligent, educated woman. She owns her own business. So she’s a very independent woman. Yet just over time our roles had been such that at that point we had been married I think about 11 years. I just handled the finances. And so I said to her I was like would it make you feel better if you paid the bills? And she’s like yes. And I’m like no problem. So we shifted that over.

That’s a good example when we talk about in mediation. I’m trying to get a vibe. If there’s one person who’s got control over like all the finances, all the information, all the knowledge, and they’re not willing to engage with the other person to work with them. A lot of the stuff we ask you to do is joint budget, joint balance sheet, joint worksheet. So that means as much as you might not want to be sitting next to that person on a Saturday afternoon, you are going to be sitting there at the desk at the computer talking through how much you spend on groceries, how much you spend on haircuts, what’s your mortgage look like.

And so it’s that person when that person comes in all high and mighty and they’ve got the spreadsheet already and they know what’s going to happen and all that, that’s a real big red flag for me. That’s the person who, they’re the know-it-all that they’re hoarding information as power. And we all know in negotiation, negotiations are built on information, but giving information is also powerful because you’re also saying, “Look what I’m doing. I’m operating in good faith. I’m building up credits in the bank of goodwill so that when I ask for something big, I’ve already given.” And so that to me, Liv, is one of those things where you see that person and you’re like, “Yeah, this person’s not going to be willing to engage. They’re not going to be willing to share. They’re going to tell me how it goes.” And that’s not what mediation is either. It’s about having a conversation. It’s about being cooperative. It’s not one party dictating whether it’s me or one of the spouses the process. So I think that to me is probably like my number one red flag that I’m looking for.

Liv: Interesting. And in those situations, do you find how is the other person who is kind of seeking that information? How what is that energy like? Only because I’m being nosy.

Joe: No, absolutely. It’s a great question. You know, you get somebody like me. So, again, listeners, here’s a great, this one. Put it, guys are going to have a lot of post-it notes up on your mirror. This is how negotiators work. This is what we’re doing to you whether you realize it or not. One of my favorite questions to diffuse tension and for your listeners, definitely use this. This is a great one. It’s help me understand. People like to help. We all seen it. We watch the videos of the, on the late night shows or the YouTube or somebody needs help doing XY and strangers just walk up and pick up the groceries. We’re all, I do believe we’re genuinely hardwired to be good. If I don’t believe that, I’m never going to sleep again. So I have to believe that we’re good people.

Help me understand. It’s a great way of saying I need your help. It’s not about you. It’s about me. I want to hear you. Want to understand. So help me understand. And when you get somebody like me who asks that question in a session or there’s a power imbalance, the other person suddenly feels validated. So it’s not just me who doesn’t understand this. This guy Joe, well, he’s a professional. He’s got this. He’s got that background. Blah blah blah. Not because it’s not it at all. It’s just, well, geez, man. If he doesn’t get it, then how the hell am I supposed to get? Hey, that’s a good question. And the other person, you can tell now if that other person is going to either explain in a certain way like, “All right, you guys, I know. I’m a scientist. I’m an engineer. I’m a computer person. I know I get wrapped up in this. Let’s talk about it.” That’s good. Whereas you get the other person who has some disdain and who has created all these models that they’re going to project their settlements out and if you guys don’t understand it, that’s not my problem. That’s an issue.

So but helping that other person, that gives them some validation. And then, you know, this is like, you remember that book? I think it was the mouse that roared. And it’s like all of a sudden you’ve got this person who’s a bit shy and a bit demure and a bit afraid. It’s like, “Hey, wait a minute. Joe doesn’t understand either. You know, maybe I’m not as, whatever. Maybe I’m more intelligent than I think. Hey, you know what? Yeah, my ex-spouse is being difficult.” And now you’re watching them kind of sitting up a little straighter and you want them to get those muscles up. Let’s go. Let’s engage here. And then I think the other person is surprised like, whoa, you’re asking some information. You’re asking for questions. It’s damn right I am. Like, and I deserve the information. So that’s how we try and we don’t interject. We try and feed the parties to get them to advocate for themselves, to speak.

Liv: I love that. All right. I have my post-it. Help me understand. I’m going to use that in life. I’m going to use that with airlines. I understand. And you just keep asking it and eventually you’ll be annoying enough that they will give you what you want.

Joe: There you go.

The Cost of Mediation

Liv: So you brought up finances and I love that story between you and your wife. Let’s talk about the coins, the Benjamins, because peace of mind is priceless. When you’re going into the process, you’ve explored all options and thinking about the cost of things. What should someone budget for as they’re going into mediation and what should the budget be? When do you know that it’s nuts and astronomical similar to how you’re talking about lawyers and hourly rates?

Joe: With mediation, it really depends on the mediator. So I’ll give you some examples. I’ve been fortunate enough where I’ve participated at Northwestern University in Chicago. A colleague of mine was teaching the 40-hour divorce mediation program there and she asked me to be one of her like co-instructors, coaches. So I was like her, one of the coaches who helped people role play and learn the things and stuff. So she was the primary instructor, she and her colleague and I was kind of an adjunct if you will. And what you realize is that people come from all different backgrounds.

And one thing that I like to remind people of which is you talked about the Benjamins. When you think about, there are, for people with children, there are four major issues. Parenting plan, child support, alimony, property division. So you think about it, three of those four are financial. When you think child support, alimony, property division. And by the way, in states like New Jersey, for example, the parenting plan serves as a direct input into the calculation of child support in the income shares model currently in use here in New Jersey. So that’s I’ll call it three and a half of the four items are financial in nature.

So now you ask yourself about the cost and you say to yourself, well, I go to this mediator who is a mental health professional, and they’re going to charge me this rate and they’re going to say my mediation is going to cost, I don’t know, $3,000. But I’m just picking a number here. But they’re also going to require me to go to a financial professional. They’re also going to require me to hire an attorney to draft the agreement and I’m also going to need to get somebody else to file it. And so now that $3,000 mediation turned into a $13,000 mediation. And so that’s where, like I’ve mentioned before, where we do a flat fee that says, look, that’s going to include your negotiation, your discovery process, all your financial analysis, because that’s me. I’m going to write your entire divorce agreement. Like, so when people think about it as a cost, you have to be careful because it’s not always apples and oranges.

There’s nothing I hate more, and I always use this example but it really makes me angry, is when you go to a restaurant and they charge you like $2 for guacamole or $1.50 for salad dressing. You’re like, I ordered a salad. It should come with dressing. If I don’t want it, good for you. You saved a $1.50. Like why are you charging me for salad dressing when I’m going to eat this plate of what? So that kind of stuff, it’s like don’t nickel and dime me. Just tell me what it’s going to cost.

And so when you’re out there talking to mediators, if you talk to us, that’s not going to happen. But if you’re out there thinking about the cost of mediation, mediation on average will run probably between $6 to $8,000. And that’s all in. So that should be with mediation, drafting, filing, financial analysis, all that stuff. But when you get other mediators who don’t have that background and now the lawyer requires a $5,000 retainer to draft your agreement and file it and then you spent this on the mediator and then oh yeah I have to also hire a CPA who’s going to charge me 1,500 to review my finances and then a mental health professional. So my partner who’s my wife who I was talking about Cheryl, she’s a divorce coach, so she’s my partner here. And so we know, and you and I have talked about this, and this is one of the things that I loved about your site is that you come across, you say listen I’m here for you because guess what, emotions drive divorce. You got to take care of you before you can take care of anybody else. Like what’s that where you put your mask on on the airplane before helping anybody else. You got to take care of you first and your emotions. And so we also have a divorce coach on staff who can help you manage that stuff as part of our mediation process.

You got to be thinking about all this stuff when you think about lawyers. Friendly lawyer driven divorce is $25 to $50,000. Friendly. Unfriendly, good luck. You know, hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands. That’s what I’d say with mediation. You should be expecting probably something in that range, maybe a little higher, a little lower depending on case complexity. But again, that’s if you’ve got somebody maybe who knows what they’re doing, who’s going to help you with a complete and thorough process. If you’re not, if you’re running into somebody where you need additional help. And the reason I brought that up about Northwestern is there were a lot of mental health professionals in the class. And these folks are wonderful at managing emotions. They are terrible with numbers. No disrespect to our friends. They could think circles around me when it comes to the inner workings of the brain. But at the end of the day, three of these four things are financial. I don’t want to be asked how I feel about the child support guidelines. I want to know will I have enough money to buy groceries for my kids. That’s what I care about.

Liv: That’s so important. I’m going to just take a couple of steps back really quickly because I don’t even think people understand. Okay, you want to get a divorce. There is no fast divorce. There’s two things I want to talk about is the comparison. So my friend got a divorce and she got that. This level of comparing another person’s situations. Every divorce is nuanced. Every divorce has complexities. No matter the situation, it could be as friendly as it could be, but there’s still certain things when you talk about the four, the three out of four things. That’s one. And then you kind of unpack a little bit all that you need to consider as you’re even filing. So, because I think a lot of, I mean, I’m just going to speak for me. I was emotionally like shut down and almost kind of like I was a shell of a person and my mediator was helping with the numbers. I don’t think I even really knew. Okay. So we have our memorandum of understanding. Now we need a paralegal to like file and then they need to go through the process. So like can you go back to what you just shared about like the numbers aspect of it, but all the drafts of things that you’re going to need someone to do for you. Can you talk about that?

Every Divorce is Unique

Joe: Yeah, certainly. So you got a couple of good points in there. Number one, again, these are things that just come up in my line of work every day. I say divorces are like snowflakes. No two are the same. And so when we, for example, when we’re instructing mediation, future mediators, they’re like, “Well, this fact pattern looks exactly the same as the other one.” And it’s like, well, even if it looks the same on paper, there is something subtle and different about every divorce. Whether someone raised kids and worked inside the home or maybe this couple moved across state lines or this one has a special needs child or, they all, they might look the same on the surface, but you really won’t know until you dig under.

So when client couples come to us and sometimes people will call us and they’ll say, “What’s your price?” I’m like, “Well, we don’t offer a single flat fee. I meet with you. I ask you a boatload of questions and then I develop a custom flat fee which I believe is going to cover comprehensively what it is I think you need. Now, if you don’t think you need that, maybe we’re not a good fit for you. No problem. I subscribe to the school of thought, which is do it right the first time.” I mean, I love hearing from former clients if they’re telling me, “Hey, oh my gosh, Johnny just graduated from high school. I was thinking of you. Thanks again. Awesome. Hope everybody’s well.” That’s what I want to get from you. Not like Joe, we have a problem. We have to come back. Blah blah blah.

So you got to remember that they’re all unique, like what you were saying. In terms of the process, in terms of all the stuff that has to happen, that also goes to the quality and the thoroughness of the mediation process. Because if you get into these situations where you have to go out and do this, go out and do this, go do that. Right now, you’re bringing in other professionals and also, Liv, like you just said, you’re not, your mental acuity. You’re not focused. You’re not there. You’re not remembering that you have to go do X, Y, or Z. You need somebody to just take care of it for you. And so when you’re looking at mediators, you want to make sure that they’re either doing it or if you have to do, because sometimes by law, like you have to have, someone has to do something themselves as the divorced couple, you say, “Look, I’m going to write you an email and I’m going to copy the person you’re going to speak to and give you their phone number. They’re going to reply to that email so it’s easy for you and then all you got to do is pick up the phone when it rings.” Like, make it easy on people.

But at the end of the day, no matter how easy you make it, and I think you hit on it, people remember when I said to you earlier about how when somebody says to me, “Why do you need a copy of that?” That’s like one of the kiss of death. Listeners, hear me now. Understand me later. Never ever ever utter the phrase, “This will be the easiest divorce you ever had.” That is when I know it’s going to be one of the most contentious, difficult negotiations because everybody’s like, “Oh, it’s going to be easy.” What are they trying to do? They’re trying to pre-negotiate with you on price. That’s exactly what they’re doing. They’re trying to let you know that it’s going to be easy because they know it’s not. And they’re trying to get a lower fee.

And so I’m just like, listen, there is no such thing as an easy divorce. Even if you’re amicable, even if you’re friendly, it’s still a very complex process with a lot of moving parts that despite you being amicable, is still going to take time to unwind. You’ve been married 10 years. You’re probably dating before that or whatever. You’ve got a decade or more of complexity under your belt. You’re not finishing that in an hour. You’re just not. So you got to acknowledge that it’s going to take some time. Litigated divorce is 2 to 3 years. Our mediation clients will get through mediation in probably 2 to 3 months. And so when you say it that way, you say, “Guys, yeah, it’s still a couple of months of intense hard work, but would you rather really hit it hard, get it done, get through the process than waiting around six months to get on this calendar and then waiting for the courts and then waiting for the judge?” Yeah, I would rather just move through, rebuild, and move on.

Liv: No, that was so good. Thanks for that. And I’m so glad you said something that made me want to go back because I don’t think people really understand the complexity, but also too that divorce while it’s a legal thing that happens, a lot of people don’t understand that it’s your whole being is shaken by this traumatic event. And so I was intentional and again I’m your prime customer one. When I went through my process, there was so much I didn’t know, but there was so much that I had to go find and bring and a lot of it was information overwhelm and I didn’t even know what to make of it. So needing someone to be like, “Okay, what do I do, sir, ma’am?” is huge.

One Lived Truth

So even as we kind of bring this to a close, can you believe it’s already been like close to an hour of us talking? But just before we wrap and on every episode I talk to my guests sometimes as women who’ve gone through divorce and gone through it and lived through it and they’re sharing some of their truths. When I think about a lived truth that you’ve seen even in your experience or even as a product of a divorce yourself, what’s one piece of wisdom you want our listeners to walk away with? Something you can hold on to as they’re going through the process. And also to please share how people can get in touch with you as well. We can also obviously put that in the show notes. But yeah, what’s your one lived truth you want people to walk away knowing?

Joe: I would say that even though you’ll no longer be husband and wife, you will always be mom and dad. So don’t forget that when you’re in the middle of the storm and you’re screaming and yelling at each other and you’re trying to stick the other one out of this support or this piece of property or that bank account, your kids still need the both of you to take care of them. They didn’t ask for this. They didn’t want this. They don’t care about the law or the process or any of that. They want to know that they’re going to have a roof over their head. They’re going to be able to get food in their belly. They’re going to be able to go to dance class or karate lessons or whatever it is while you all are pissing and moaning around each other.

You got to remember that every dollar you’re wasting is a dollar you’re taking away from your kids. So that’s it. Just remember that. Put a picture of your kids on the desk. Like take a photo out of your wallet, slap it right there on the negotiation table and just point at it and say, “What if our kids were here?” What would they think of this? They’d be like, “Mom, dad, you guys are nuts.”

So that’s what I would say to you if you got kids. Man, I am a child of litigated divorce. I can tell you it sucked. And it just ruined my high school years. I had to stop playing soccer and go get a job and parents arguing over this, that. I sat in the back of the courtroom. The whole nine yards. All the stuff everybody says, “Oh, that’s not going to happen.” It happens. Trust me, it happens.

Liv: I think that was very helpful. I also just want to make sure as we’re talking to you listening if you’re in this process. I think the kids, now I felt like my brain is pinging because I think the subject of the kids. I know for me they were most important because I needed that. I needed to know that they were going to be okay. And that’s one of the reasons why I chose a non-contentious divorce because I wanted them to also see that you can come into a relationship and have conflict, but there’s a way you can move forward without, you know, it being so piss poor. So that was great.

How to Find Joe

So Joe, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, your insights, your heart, your information, and for giving us a window into a better way to navigate some of the hardest things or one of the hardest things people go through in their lives. And so tell our listeners how to find you, where you are, and repeat again the states that you practice in in case people want to tap into that.

Joe: Yeah, thank you. So the best place to visit us is our website equitablemediation.com. I’ve been a big proponent of blogging and writing. And so if you go on our website, you’ll see in our main navigation a learning center. And in there, you’re going to find articles and videos and podcasts and digital courses and all kinds of stuff that you can just review. And what we’ve been talking about, Liv, and I think you and I both subscribe to this theory, is that it’s important for people to feel empowered and to gain knowledge, but you don’t have to do it yourself. That’s what professionals exist for. We study this, we live this, we learn this.

An educated client is a great client for us. So when you go on our website, that’s equitablemediation.com, learn, gather information. Divorce is state specific. So we have state specific guides. We’re in Washington, California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. And also, all the blog posts just even on preparing for divorce as a man, as a woman, because guess what? I know your listenership. You’ve got all kinds of folks listening out there. It is different for men and women. You come at it from different perspectives. And then it’s different if you’re the primary earner or you’re the secondary earner.

And one of the interesting things, we didn’t get a chance to talk about maybe future show, is that we’re getting a lot of women who are the primary breadwinners who are also driving the divorce process. That’s a recent phenomenon. That’s a unique animal. So that’s something that if you’re in that position as that individual, you’re the unicorn here. So you need to prepare in a much different way. And I know that’s your story. So that’s why I brought it up. So that’s the kind of stuff, get educated, get the knowledge, learn enough, but again, rely on those professionals to help you and like yourself, actively choose that. Do it on purpose. Intentionally choose to have an amicable divorce. You can do it. It’s hard. You’re going to have to bite your tongue a lot, but you can do it.

Liv: You can do it. And I think there’s also this notion of fear, not wanting to rip the bandage off or being afraid of the unknown. But I think once you have the information, you are empowered. I’m not going to say the fear goes away, but you feel better prepared to enter into the process with all the information you need to make the right best decision for you.

So we do need to do a part two because that’s a whole other episode.

Joe: Count me in. We’ll be here all day.

Liv: And we can talk about how pissed I was when I realized that and then have to figure that out. So that’s maybe that’s a Liv after dark episode.

Joe: That’s right. Yeah. You know, we’ll get a couple of glasses of wine. We’ll hang out. We’ll turn the lights down a bit.

Liv: That is in fact it. All righty. Well, fam, if today’s episode hit home, make sure you share with a friend. You can leave a review or drop us a DM on social media. And remember, you can end well, you can heal whole, and you can actually live a life of freedom post divorce. And so until next time, stay strong, stay you, and cheers to living. Take care.